A True “Whale of a Tale”

Be sure to visit my new blog focused on the UK: http://www.amwayukblog.wordpress.com

Here’s some other blogs that uncover scams with other MLMs:

This blog is designed to educate others and provide an opportunity to take action to shut down the Amway Tool Scam (ATS, defined in the Glossary) and illegal pyramid (lack of retail sales), and most MLMs are designed to mimic the Amway “business,” so this information regarding Amway is probably applicable to most other MLMs as well. The information is for anybody, including:

1. Anybody thinking about becoming an IBO (independent Business Owner, aka distributor) to prevent you from being ripped off, or

2. Former IBOs who have already been ripped off, or

3. Anybody else on the World Wide Web who is curious.

The ATS is in direct violation of FTC rules, Section 5 (http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Section_5_of_the_FTC_Act), which charges the FTC with stopping “Unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce, are hereby declared unlawful.” This blog includes my opinions, facts, logic, and documentation that substantiate the FTC Section 5 rules regarding the prohibition of fraudulent, unfair, and deceptive ATS practices, which consists of 16 years experience as an Amway/Quixtar IBO, research/analysis of the ATS since 2005 specifically and MLM in general, and the highlights of that effort incorporate the primary sources/references found here.

Before proceeding, be sure to read and understand the Legal Notice found here, as I won an important court decision against Amway, with some minor constraints:  http://stoptheamwaytoolscam.wordpress.com/about/, particularly the pdf link, items 5-11.

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315 thoughts on “A True “Whale of a Tale”

  1. Amway is in line with joining a religion, very much a cult. You have to believe that the horse(feces) you are doing is the right thing to do, very similar to a religion. You walk around with blinders on, brainwash yourself, and become a member of the NFL club (No Friends Left). In order to be successful, you’re asking people to transform their very lives and turn themselves over to the Amway lord. “Oh mighty Amway…..I hear your calls to buy a minimum amount of Amway products per month oh mighty Amway. I will buy brainwashing cds, dvds, and follow you to the gates of righteousness oh mighty Amway.” People who want to become gazillionaires fall for this nonsense. (comment modified slightly to comply with agreement (no cussing) and minor grammatical error (you’re instead of your – use the apostrophe when the words “you are” could be used properly))

    • Thanks for your comment, I encourage you and everyone else viewing this blog to forward a link to this site to every single non-IBO/Distributor you know, so they don’t get scammed.

      I think your association of Amway (and I assume your upline) to religion and cults is misplaced. At the heart of the issue is the fact the business model shown prospects and IBOs is a lie, and this lie is known to both your upline AND Amway.

      This is obviously an insult to religion, and the cult charge minimizes the issue that you are being RICO scammed by your upline and Amway, working in concert. Remember, cults are not illegal, a RICO scam is illegal.

      I did enjoy the NFL reference, I’ve been around Amway since 1993 and researched Amway in particular and MLMs in general since 2005, and don’t recall ever hearing that term before.

      However, ANY business has certain patterns for developing success, and the problem isn’t with following a pattern, it is the results of the pattern and the untold story behind the pattern; namely, HUGE ATS profits for your upline LCKs and 99+% of IBOs operating at a net loss.

      • I was in Scamway back in the early 90’s. I recall my wife and I spending 300 bucks one month and getting a check for 16 bucks. Wow. We were on the road to riches I tell ya. I started venturing off with a different MLM company when I saw nothing was becoming from the Scamster life. I was out one weekend working with that different MLM company when my upline paid me a visit to my house. My wife was home, invited them in, and they proceeded to rip into her about how I’m leaving the Scamster organization and that she should be ashamed of herself. They put her to tears and wiped the floor with her emotionally. I found out about it later that day. I was half tempted to visit them and shove a box of that Amway soap straight up their anal cavities, but I just let it go. My sponsor and his up-line were a couple of wolves looking for blood.
        This may be a bit off subject, but just wanted to share what sort of people work in the Amway organization… (Cleaned up language – no cussing, remember?)

      • Besides the numerous words misspelled in Tom’s message, I don’t need Cha Cha, I have the facts. The facts are based on court documents and direct statements of people who know what they are talking about, unlike Cha Cha. And Wikipedia has been shown to be more accurate than encyclopedias.

    • I believe you don’t have information to these ideas, as you know who I was with this weekend at a conference discussing a future Amway, for young people are the future of Amway. All old geezers will return to you’re original state (star dust) Young I.B.Os will be here for new projects in Amway. See now it has become an opportunity not just for people. But for sience, and the future of civilization. See you are privileged to here about this. The future of Amway is threw young people like myself. I might be an I.B.O now, but when we tomorrows future come to these ideas and push them forward. “A new Way” for future security of not just people… but of the civilization.

      • Same song, different generation from Jody. Thanks for saving civilization, but Jody already did it 30 years ago, again 20 years ago, and again 10 years ago, too bad Tom will be in bankruptcy when it happens. LOL

        P.S., a third grader can spell better than Tom, now we know the level of intelligence new IBOs have! LOL

      • keep on believing; that’s what Amway wants you to do. Watch this Dateline special on Amway and see for yourself who’s getting rich from the tool scam.

      • He’s not kidding at all, that’s what the Amway kool-aid tastes like. I’ve been around long enough to see it cycle a few times – over 12 years being scammed, plus 4 more observing from the inside, and 4 (and counting, as of 2013) from the outside. Plus, I’ve done research from previous decades. Jody even had a cassette tape in the early 90s, which he probably made millions of dollars from via the ATS, called “A New Beginning.” LOL

        They have a “brand new” business every few years, but It’s really just the the same old thing. However, the new people don’t know that, so it attracts the new scam victims. How else can Amway compete with the information on this and other web sites? But they only need them for a few months anyway, because most new IBOs will either be broke by then, and it’s time for some fresh meat. LOL

      • Wow!. I attended an Amway meeting recently at the behest of a family friend. For one they repeatedly said that they weren’t Amway though. For another they mentioned several times that they were “not the old” Amway. The level of drone like behavior was scary. There were multiple people screaming hallelujah, thats right and UmmmHmmm whenever the speaker said anything particularly ridiculous. My family friend, who is minority, uneducated, and poor, but also hard working and a really good kid in general was singled out by the speaker as a future millionaire. He had recruited his parents who are equally good people, but unemployed and hopeful. After the meeting I asked him how long he had been in and was it meeting his expectations. He said over two years but was clearly uncomfortable talking about how much money he was actually making. I assume nothing or close to it. Even after 2 years he was still convinced he was going to be rich despite the evidence. How can this happen if older, more experienced people aren’t continually prodding him into investing more of their limited funds? The next time we spoke they were on the way as a group to an out of state “training” that promised them riches while costing them thousands and making others rich. The zombie like behavior is bizarre.

      • How long ago was it, and which minority is your friend? I know they are targeting mainly Hispanic, and to a lesser degree, Oriental minorities. The reason for this is these are large groups that don’t read/speak English, so the information on blogs like this essentially isn’t available to them, it’s as if they live in a pre-internet age. I would have loved to have heard the “not Amway” and “new Amway” dance, it must have been hilarious. What was the ethnic background of the people screaming hallelujah, thats right and UmmmHmmm whenever the speaker said anything particularly ridiculous? Chances are really high that the speaker was broke, and was being told by his upline that success is “right around the corner,” or something similar. I prefer they are listening to liars to zombie behavior, but that’s just me. However, this is one reason why I recommend contacting everybody you know BEFORE they become IBOs, as they won’t listen to “outsiders” after they are in.

      • They were a mixed Asian/American family. They are really wonderful people and I think they really hoping to help me financially. I wouldn’t attribute their buy-in to a their ethnicity, but rather to their lack of advanced education, level of trust (they really looked up to the speaker) and a general lack of business savvy. It was a mixed audience and the prominent screamers were young white men. It is hard to state it without sounding judgemental, but I got the impression that they were working class, financially unsophisticated people. The funny part was a young guy at the end asking how you could make money by just selling to yourself? He commented that no business could succeed if it only sold to itself. The response was that it was a complicated. Would he stay after the meeting with his sponsor and discuss it further? I’m not sure he was ever seen again :).

      • Thanks, I wouldn’t take lack of education as lack of business savvy, the real problem is with the upline liars. My upline was a nuclear power plant middle level manager (Steve Sawa), a doctor (Jim LaRose), another doctor (Charles Rudd), an airline pilot (Dennis Turnbough), another airline pilot (Allen James), a helicopter pilot (Bruce Anderson), a high school teacher (Don Wilson), and a beer salesman (Dexter Yager). The only one still in Amway to my knowledge is Yager. The problem is these people lie in order to get people to join, and the improvement is this and other blogs are making progress with those with internet access. And the lying problem may not be with the person showing the marketing plan, if they are not aware of the tool scam. I would have loved to have been there when the “buy from yourself” concern was raised. However, the answer is quite simple. Why would the upline want an IBO to spend their limited time selling to customers and makes the upline pennies, when you can just buy for yourself and sponsor others, which requires lots of tools to be purchased, which makes them dollars?

      • My time is little to have a conversation with an idiot, I simply “need to you” [sic] read a little.

        By the way, the word is “through,” not “threw.” LOL

      • I must use translator. My language is not too different from you own. I could write in my language. The words would be almost the same, but you could not possibly understand completely.
        One must spend time in United Kingdom to do so. I would think so that I could be lacking knowledge in the American English language. My apologies please

      • A good way to improve American writing is to read it. I suggest everyone read this blog from beginning to end to help yourself learn more about the ATS as well.

  2. We also started in the early 90s, January 1993 to be more precise. You shouldn’t be surprised by the $16 bonus on a $300 purchase, that’s how the bonus structure works, assuming you didn’t have any retail or downline volume. However, the upline LCKs promoting massive self consumption is a problem, as well as leaving out the disclosure they made much more of their profit from the tools than from the Amway products/services. Our upline Diamond was Bruce Anderson, who was yours? I don’t recall whether you could be in another MLM at the same time in the early 90s, I know it was not allowed later on (we were IBOs until our termination in 2009). However, the reaction of your upline to this news was probably, and unfortunately, typical. Nothing is off subject on this blog, as long as it involves Amway in some manner.

    • it was called Shapefast. They had diet pills, energy drinks, valerian root pills, a bunch of stuff. It was a tough sell though since the bottles retailed for 29.95. I focused on the energy drink part of it. Sold a few bottles, few pills. It was better than asking people to flip their house upside down and rethink how they buy normal every day items.

      • So that didn’t work out either? If the Amway program were different (prices lower, no high pressure from your upline), do you think the broad array of products is actually an advantage, as it provides more profit potential per household? Who was your Amway upline Diamond?

      • In my case, my husband just joined about 2 mths ago. I recently stopped working because I’m 3 weeks away from giving birth. Our only income comes from our recently opened small business, which is not much.
        I’ve been trying to shop as smart as I can to save $$$, using coupons, shopping at different locations comparing prices. Not easy, but a way to save. All of a sudden I get boxes and boxes of products at home. I’m thinking that he bought them to sell them (which I thought it was crazy, since we can’t afford spending that much to sell who knows when). I was wrong, he bought all of those products for me to try. Are you kidding me???? Now I have 2 different bottles of glass cleaner, 3 deodorants, ….and much more…unnecessary!!!!, The worst thing is that he is getting our friends involved and our customers The weekly meetings are held at our business. This is not looking good and I’m not sure how to stop this. I need advice,please.

      • has to be Amway. Shapefast had pills, pills, and more pills. They also had a gross tasting energy drink and an acclaimed “stop smoking” straws. You can hardly find anything on them anymore.

    • He is in amway; He also has the pills and energy drinks, and lotions and anything that they have and we don’t need.I’m sure he is an IBO, he has invested a lot of time and money into this (which we don’t have).
      Thanks for comments.

      • I could share my experience if you’re interested (in 60 words or less). Paid $135 for the kit. Went to seminars, recruitment meetings, bought books, tapes, cd’s, Ended up around $1,500 in debt with no income coming in (this is 1992).
        I joined to start my own business. Took a couple of months to realize what a huge mess I had gotten myself into. Took forever to pay off the debt I created.

  3. I read your comment on the article about the Herbalife controversy. I have to say I find it amazing that this sort of controversy took so long to come out in the open. It was obvious in the 80’s that Multi-Level Marketing was exploitive. I wonder why it was tolerated at that time and people are criticizing it more now. It seems there was a kind of mindset at that time that if the “winners” at the top got as rich as possible, everyone else would benefit. Recently we’ve come to see that really isn’t true. But even in the 80’s, I remember one Amway distributor admitting that only 1% of people in the business made money. He didn’t seem to think that was any big deal. He wasn’t making money himself but thought that if he failed, it would be his own fault. I find that a really strange mindset. He realized he was being exploited and seemed to think he just needed to work harder so he could step into the ranks of the exploiters. Why do we tolerate that kind of nonsense?

    • Ted,

      Thanks for your comment. The main reason this took so long to come out in the open is because the internet enabled it. The internet started in a public form in about 1995. It took until the late 90s to early 2000s for the information to be plentiful enough (multiple individuals backing up each others’ stories) and for the internet to be mature enough (connection speed, which allows for audios and videos, which are very convincing data points). I don’t agree it was obvious MLM was exploitative in the 80s, or the number of people who joined wouldn’t have joined. It was more ignorance than tolerating it. Your story of an Amway distributor stating only 1% of the people make money is not my experience or the experience of hundreds of other bloggers that I have read. I’m not saying the story isn’t true, but it is a very small minority that hear this view. However, the upline is very good at convincing a lot of people that if they fail, it is their own fault. In reality, the reason most people fail is because of the ATS lie, which is thoroughly described in this thread.

  4. Tex,
    I was glad to see that Team USA came out against excessive profiteering from tools. I hope that will become influential in Amway. I couldn’t help but laugh at that legal complaint you mentioned by the Diamond distributor complaining that he wasn’t “in on the action” when others were selling the tools. I hope he doesn’t get anywhere with that complaint.
    Thanks

    • Ted,

      Although I share your hope, I doubt iteamusa will become more influential in Amway, there’s simply too much ATS money involved. I’m not only hoping, I’m taking action, and anyone who wants to join me is welcome to do the same. Just let me know when you would like to talk, and if you desire, we can use the conference call number and you can keep your number confidential.

      Alternatively, if you want millions of people to continue to be ripped off for 10s to hundreds of billions of collars over the next few decades like they were the previous few decades, don’t respond. Your choice, it’s a free country.

      Regarding the Diamond who wasn’t getting enough ATS money, are you talking about Morrison and company?

  5. This Amway Review will be answering the obvious question: Does Amway offer a legitimate and promising MLM Business opportunity, or should this be considered as a scam or pyramid scheme? I intend to answer this very question in my unbiased Amway Review.

    • Which Amway review? As can be seen above, Amway is not legitimate, it is a scam. The question has already been answered, but go ahead and provide your own “unbiased” Amway review.

      • Why don’t you tell that to Best Buy, to the Miss America organization, to the United States Chamber of Commerce, to the Orlando Magic basketball team (owned by Rich DeVos)? See if their attorneys will ignore their research and believe you? How can you be so uninformed?

      • Why don’t I tell what to Best Buy? Miss America already dumped Amway. LOL The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is headed by Steve Van Andel, do you really think they will do the right thing when presented with the facts? Same for the Orlando Magic? A lot of attorneys are scumbags, I learned that up close and personal with my own lawsuit with Amway and the Pokorny lawsuit. Any reader of this blog cannot be as uninformed as George. LOL

  6. A recent comment was received that has not been posted, because it did not comply with the agreement with Amway, namely item #8. But it is understandable, the poster is “joecool” a well known dirtbag. LOL

  7. As regular readers would know, a few years back some disgruntled former Quixtar IBOs, Pokorny & Blenn, launched a class action lawsuit in California against Quixtar (now Amway) and Britt World Wide . In my view the case was clearly bogus, but Amway decided to avoid the cost of a long court case, and also take the opportunity to clear the decks of any issues from the past. What they did was to not only offer a settlement, but to bring all the other major Amway business support groups in to the case as well, so that any IBOs who felt they’d been exploited could get some restitution and agree not to launch any future legal actions. Everyone could just move on.

    • Victor, you are entitled to your own opinion about the Pokorny lawsuit being “bogus,” but you are NOT entitled to your own facts. The FACTS are all throughout this site; I suggest you read them. The lawsuit has lasted over 7 years, so your suggestion Amway didn’t want a long court case is bogus. The actual trial could have been held years ago and would have been over in a week or two. The bottom line is Amway wanted to draw out the litigation until the Pokorny lawyers got nervous whether they would ever get paid the $15 million they think they are owed, which Amway has agreed to pay. If you think the settlement “clears the decks,” you are very mistaken. The other “support groups” (aka tool scammers) were probably added to the case at the insistence of Pokorny, not Amway. IBOs don’t get ANY restitution, only former IBOs. This settlement does NOTHING to shut down the Amway Tool Scam, and future IBOs who quit can file a new lawsuit, and I suggest they do just that, until the Amway Tool Scam is shut down. I would be happy to testify and offer the information on this site and additional information in my possession to assist in this effort. Everyone should move on and STOP THE AMWAY TOOL SCAM!!!

      • does the public know, the biggest economic fall. An even bigger fall then the last one is about to take place SOONER than anybody can expect. Dont say i didn tell you so…

  8. The complaint explains that while MonaVie has only been around only a few years, its founder was associated with a now defunct company which enjoyed tremendous growth by marketing a “superfood” derived from a sea plant. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) took action against the company for unsubstantiated therapeutic claims for mitigating various diseases. The company eventually stopped selling the product and its remaining inventory was destroyed under FDA supervision.

      • The fact that MonaVie’s founder, Dallin Larsen, had a shady past is consistent with most of the other characters associated with Amway on this blog. Here’s what wiki has to say about a previous scam Dallin was involved with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonaVie): Dallin Larsen and Dynamic Essentials/Royal Tongan Limu MonaVie CEO and founder Dallin Larsen was previously a senior executive with an MLM company that sold a similar juice product prior to being shut down by the FDA for illegal business practices.[7][9] In 2001, Larsen became vice president of sales for Dynamic Essentials in Lake Mary, Florida, which sold a fruit juice called Royal Tongan Limu,[8][9] where he claimed to have increased revenue 300 percent. But in 2002, during Larsen’s tenure, the FDA issued a letter to Dynamic Essentials warning that claims on the company’s website that the juice could “treat various diseases such as cancer, arthritis, and attention deficit disorder” were in violation of federal law.[10] Dynamic Essentials sometime after that ceased operation. In October 2003, the FDA said it witnessed the voluntary destruction of 90,000 bottles of Royal Tongan Limu.[7]

        What I don’t understand is why he didn’t use specific company and and individual’s names. He also tried to promote his business on this site, which I removed, and is probably the real reason he posted.

  9. Wow, its always good to get informed and read as much as you can to make up your own mind.

    You know Herbalife was like that and so is AVON. I have done both and am now with Amway. I am actually making money which shocks me because what I have come to learn is that it depends on the person doing the work. Amway gave me more opportunity to put money in the pocket than the other 2 businesses which also have a pyramid scheme that they are not honest about. I set up my own business providing a service that used the amway products. I could have gone directly to Murad and used those for my business but the profit margin was smaller. So I sell my services as a beutician, I get paid for that and I sell the product. I also give my close friends a chance to take my business model and to start their own one. I help with it all and they use my success as an example…If you take control, keep your mind away from potential MLM partners who may try to get you to become a scammer, then thats what you will be. Amway as a legitamite base line for business is an honest living if YOU make it one…. Caaaaaching$$$$$$

      • I’m glad you read the blog, but why did you call me the idiot without backing up WHY you think I am an idiot? That makes YOU the idiot! LOL

      • “I had a similar experience, except I lost well over $100,000 in 12 years, from 1993 until 2005.“
        it appears to me that you Tex are the idiot. how do you lose that kind of money in to something that has little financial obligation to start up and maintain? people do make money, having the right training and mentality that there is a lot of money to be made here.

      • Amway products are way too expensive. Try peddling this stuff on Rodeo Drive or some place where people can afford a $6 tube of toothpaste or a $20 box of soap. Don’t get me started on the books, dvd’s, cd’s, etc to keep you on a clear path to bankruptcy.

    • My guess is that your beautician business will fail along with your Amway business if you are actually retailing product rather than recruiting. The products are overpriced and offer no verifiable benefit. When your actual customers figure this out good bye actual job.

    • Exactly. But, Tex is just so mad he did not have the right leader. Simple. But join now Tex, Amway is brighter then ever befor, and is much easier. Are you goung to let a 19 year old reach these levels faster? Come on 19! At higher then Emerald!

      • My “leader” was one of the biggest in Amway. The problem is the leaders are liars, particularly people like Jody. Amway isn’t brighter or easier, it is still a scam. There’s a reason why there are now mostly Hispanics and Orientals make up most of Amway’s North American volume, and it is explained elsewhere on this blog. Find it. Oh, and try constructing sentences that make sense next time. LOL

  10. oh and by the way…. honesty is the best way. I always tell my friends that the cut from Amway is only product based and that they would pay more for a mentor in an average business setup. Service fees are not part of the deal and basically, whatever I get from Amway is paying for their right to call me anytime for help. So far we have actually combined sessions and made a stack of group bookings and it like a mini franchise. What earned about $100 a week now is more because its an MLM, so yes it does work. Yes it take effort, yes you need to be yourself, find your market and don’t get sucked in by the bad apples because in life, there is always some-one who is doing it wrong… make up your own mind

      • KK, when did Scamster start selling hallucinatory herbs? Lay off the weed for awhile and read the postings in this forum. How many cd, dvds, those wonderful tools have you bought so far? Keep on trucking towards financial ruin. Soon you’ll be spending your unemployment checks on Amway tools. Keep that company alive brotha!

      • Tex2, Wow, its crazy how you just keep resorting to name calling instead of adding actual facts and intelligent conversation. Even if some people misspell words or use incorrect grammar, you shouldn’t have to resort to bashing on that. You should be able to follow up with intelligent thoughts to make your case. I suspect you lose a lot of people you might be able to influence just because you go negative instead of adding any intelligent thoughts to the conversation.

      • It’s called free speech. There are probably tens of thousands or more facts on this blog. There are thousands of intelligent thoughts on this blog. Get a clue. If I lose stupid people like CB, so be it. LOL

      • People have come here first before deciding to not join Amway and have thanked the owner for providing factual information. Art though an avid amway supporter?

      • And my experience with blogs since 2005 is that hundreds, if not thousands, of people DON’T make a comment for every one that does, which means there are a LOT of people who don’t join Amway who otherwise would have joined and gotten scammed. No doubt CB is a rabid Amway supporter. Note how he didn’t refute any of the thousands of facts on this blog. LOL

    • Nice try comparing Amway to a franchise. Typical BS mumbo jumo that tries to add credibility to this business. Does a franchise open up stores one next to the other? Does a franchise open up based on consumer need or the need to bilk new franchisees?

  11. I’m glad this blog exists. There should be more of them to help prevent others from wasting their money. I was recently approached by a woman in the shoe department at WalMart. She said she had a business opportunity for me and handed me a card with a fake company name. I googled this “company” before hand and found only vague information. I decided to go anyways, thinking maybe she just started a business.
    When I got there, her and her husband were giving me this BS presentation on how I can start making lots of $$ with little time wasted. I have to admit that they almost had me at the end, but the words “registration fee” came out and a bell set off and I came back to Earth. I knew I would lose money, and if I wanted to make it back it would take me a year. I left without signing up and not wanting to have anything to do with it. However, I can’t stop thinking about it, mainly because these people and many like them are scamming soo many others. I later found out that three members of my family signed with them when they first came to Canada, and of course lost money.

    • While I appreciate your compliments, I don’t believe blogs by themselves will get the ATS shut down. That’s why there is FAR more going on behind the scenes. Do you remember the company name on the business card? How much was the registration fee?

  12. also, forgot to mention that the name Amway didn’t come up until 20mins of the 1.5hr long presentation. (I didn’t know them at the time either)

    • That is typical. There were some groups, like Orrin Woodward’s, that NEVER used the word Amway or Quixtar, as it was called for several years. There are probably still groups that never use the Amway name during the presentation. When you say you didn’t know “them” at the time, do you mean the word Amway?

      • when I was in we were told to call it the “umbrella corporation”. Failure to do so would get you throw into the Amway prison camps (jk on that last part).

  13. What years were you in? Was “umbrella corporation” used to minimize the role of Amway, such as describing it as only the product supplier? Who was your upline and what was their tool system name? Does “jk” mean joke or something else? Thanks.

    • cant remember the tool system name, only that I had cassettes I was told to listen to every waking moment of the day. the guy that introduced me to the plan and kept spraying his Glister breathe spray all the time trying to get attention was Craig Brown. He lived in Jacksonville, Arkansas. Cant remember the names of the up-line people, just their faces. Our Diamond was some older fat dude. I tried googling “scamway fat dude”, came up empty. Early 90’s was when Craig introduced me to someone with a dry erase board and was covering it with circles. We were told to not mention Amway, only that we carry some of their products. Such baloney. Our sponsor was pushing his Amway toilet paper on us and my wife said it feels like sandpaper. He says “but your buying it from your own company.” Wife replies “I could get used to it though”. I was on the road to riches with my sore rear end.
      jk=just kidding :)

      • Thanks; your experience was similar to most others’ as well. I think the idea behind the sandpaper toilet paper was to make you jump around more while showing the plan on the white board, while your wife looked excited by squirming while sitting and watching you. That way, you both looked “excited.”

        I realize you were just kidding about the Amway prison camps from a literal viewpoint, but I bet you would be shunned if you didn’t follow the uplines’ edicts regarding how to minimize the position of Amway, which would put you in a figurative Amway prison camp, and solitary confinement at that.

  14. A scam. really? How does a a scam last 54 years and is a worldwide business providing wholesale buying and extra income to millions! Please, try and think a little bit before judging something based on what you or any one person did with the opportunity……….thank you…..

    • Dorothy obviously hit her head pretty hard during the making of “The Wizard of Oz.” She probably is in denial that Bernie Madoff was also in “business” for many years before being caught. Or Enron. Or Adelphia. Or Tyco. Or MCI. She probably hasn’t read this blog, or she would know Rich DeVos was fired as the RNC Finance Chairman and his CFO and outside audit firm quit when he didn’t listen to them, then plead guilty to fraud involving Canadian trade and paid $50-60 MM. She probably skipped the part about DeVos speaking out against the ATS then allowed this scam to stay in place because he found out he could raise the prices and lower the bonus payout because the LCKs were cleaning up via the ATS. Just because Amway and the top 1% of LCK IBOs are making money doesn’t mean the other 99% of IBOs are making a net profit. This blog is based on my personal experience and my intense study of numerous blogs and other communications with others who have scammed and been scammed over the past few decades. Please, try and think a little bit before judging something based on what you or any one person did with the opportunity……….thank you…..and try tapping your red shoes three times to get back to reality.

    • Dorothy,
      please don’t just pick up an Amway pamphlet from a restroom trashcan and read what it says because that’s exactly how your comment reads. You are telling us what the Scamster company wants you to believe. Scroll back up and read a little bit yourself before praising a company with such ridiculous sales tactics.

      • Dorothy is one of the few English reading/speaking people left who hasn’t checked out the facts about the ATS. Note how virtually ALL the new “leaders” (aka scammers) are Hispanic or Oriental: http://www.achievemagazine.com/category/achievement, or some other minority that doesn’t read English and/or can’t afford to be on the “internets.” These minority groups are being scammed just like I was when I joined in 1993, before the internet was available and the subsequent years as ATS facts accumulated.

    • [Edit: The following message is directed towards and intended for the general public to consider, as are all messages on this entire blog] Dorothy, mere existence has nothing to do ethics or truth. Assuming you and other pro MLM posters are “successful” in these businesses; how many people have your brought into this business to become successful? How many of them have been successful? Since it is well documented that well over 90% of people who enter these businesses lose money, it is likely that a significant number of people you recruited lost money. If you are happy knowing that your success depended on losses incurred by people you sold this idea to, then you are morally bankrupt. This was the question I asked myself when I considered joining and the answer was no, despite confidence that I could make money selling the product. I imagine you are now saying to yourself that you didn’t force anyone to join, (this is a common response that I receive when I ask this question of MLMers) this does absolve you of responsibility since MLM’s never give full disclosure to recruits. Have you ever told a recruit what the average IBO makes, have you ever told a recruit what the drop out rate is? Without this information the recruit cannot make an informed decision. Did you know that the DSA lobbied successfully to be able to withhold this information from recruits? In addition, as a MLMer you are responsible not only for your own misrepresentations, you are also responsible for the misrepresentations and failures of each individual in your down line. You may be able to justify your theft of others in a million ways, but if you truly look deep at yourself you know you are taking advantage of the majority of those who made you money. I consider MLM as a business model comparable to someone selling a product that they know will not work based on statistical evidence. No other business or business model would be allowed to defraud people in such a way without legal recrimination. I hope you wake up or have to face the ugly truth when asked to answer for your ways when this life is over.

    • The investigation has been done, that’s what this site is all about. The answer is there are FTC Section 5 violations regarding unfair and deceptive practices and RICO fraud.

      • hey Chris. I’ve heard of being brainwashed, but dedicated brainwashed? Oh my! What has Amway done to you? It sounds like you are running a high fever with chills. Are you having any problems remembering things? I’m calling 911 and having an ambulance sent over to you full of books, cd’s, and tickets to the next Fagway function. Help is on the way; don’t you worry!!

      • I doubt Chris understands how many of his/her prospects won’t join because of this blog, how many former IBOs are learning it wasn’t their fault for failing and are telling others about the ATS, or how many IBOs are quitting every day because of this blog. Talk about being lonely at the top! Even customers don’t want to buy from a scam. LOL

        If Chris has read this blog and STILL wants to stay in Amway, he/she DESERVES to be ripped off. LOL

  15. haha im not getting ripped off xD
    you guys are morons hahaha
    like seriously dude im like 17yrs old and I’m not brainwashed ..i dont buy cd’s books none of that …i just buy what my mom needs in her house and what people like i dont bug them they bug me…and my downlines are pure teens so we”ll see dude ..if amway is riiping me off why am i getting 180 dolars a month…

      • hang in there kid. At 180 bucks a month your doing better than most IBO’s (Independent Brainwashed Ogers)

      • you think your cool cause you made this blog or what?
        your just making a complete fool of yourself…have the balls to make a video and show your real name ..

      • Chris, you’re underwhelming responses are somewhat comical at most. Judging by the amount of ha ha’s you put in your responses, I’d say your closer to age 12 than 17. When your out of kiddie school and start earning your own money, feel free to attend as many Fagway functions are humanly possible.

      • Below Me,

        $180/month is where Chris will top out, he only has one mommy and daddy, and a limited number of friends, most of who will probably stop buying soon. LOL

        Chris,

        The word is “you’re” not “your,” talk about making a fool of yourself! LOL
        I don’t think I’m cool, but Chris is so stupid I look cool. LOL
        Can anyone tell me how listing the facts make me look a fool? LOL
        How does making a video or showing my real name (which you would know if you read the blog!) change the facts? LOL

  16. LOL! the worm. good one. Getting hooked on Amway tools is similar to being addicted to gambling or being a meth user. You know what you’re doing is wrong, but you keep doing it anyway. Chris with all of his “ha ha’s” is just the beginning. Soon he will be ‘shooting up’ at their functions and rally’s. Terrible path to go down. They have drug rehab clinics….why hasn’t anyone created an Amway recovery clinic? They would simply put money back into your bank account, and sign a statement saying to never, ever attend another Fagway convention or rally. Violating this would put you in jail, or on stage at an Amway function telling everyone how broke you are.

    • That is almost the exact wording I used when discussing TIF with an Amway employee a few years ago. TIF could have simply reduced tool prices, but the upline was “hooked” on the ATS profit. Actually, I didn’t know what I was doing was wrong until I found out how much profit was being made from the ATS, then I quit cold turkey.

      THIS is the Amway recovery clinic. Just like AA, the first step is to admit you have a problem, and all the facts are here to come to that realization. The motto is, “The only thing worse than failing at Amway is succeeding at Amway.”

      • oh my gosh :o
        im going to quit on amway now thanks tex2 and below me ..i just dont know what to say ..im just going to be a low life like you guys xD

      • Chris thinks this blog is all about him. It isn’t. This blog isn’t about some lone teenager selling some produts to mommy because she wants him to think he’s a big boy business guy (just like everyone gets a trophy on the soccer/Little League baseball team, or risk hurting wittle Chris’ feewings), and a few of his teenage friends who have a teenager need to fit in and look cool, so they buy some energy drinks with their allowance.

        This blog is about the VAST majority of IBOs getting ripped off by Amway and their upline. The real low lifes are Amway and the LCK upline IBOs. I’m taking the high road and telling the truth about the ATS.

  17. Your an idiot like seriously get a life xD
    Are you an herbalife representative or what? Haha
    Dude I showed my donwlines this blog and they didn’t care xD
    So yeah man I guess they are getting ripped off like I am…hahaha

    • The word is “you’re,” not “your.” I’ll use both words properly in one sentence, “You’re an idiot if you read this blog and then stick your head up your butt and become an IBO.” See? LOL

      I am not a Herbalife distributor, but I’ve been using the Herbalife news to spread the ATS news! LOL

      What’s a “donwlines?” LOL Do you mean…both of your parents? LOL

      Anyone who has read this blog and understands it KNOWS they would get ripped off if they became an IBO, even if they don’t buy ANY upline tools. LOL

      • Wow haha you think your all hip cause you think your offending a teen haha nope I actually dont really care xD
        But its funny cause a blog is a way to discuss and share your opinions and thoughts not facts (:
        And if you really hate amway do something ..tell the government or make a petition ..make a video ..get a life ..hahaha I

      • I wouldn’t even entertain him anymore. Why is he even posting here? He must be scared.

      • I’m not offending anybody, just pointing out facts. If the facts offend you, the next step may be to start thinking, for a change.

        Of course you don’t care, you’re a teenager.

        THIS blog is mostly about facts, don’t try to tell me how to run my blog.

        You can start your own lame blog and “share your opinions and thoughts not facts (:”

        Over the past 3 days, I contacted, in writing, all 50 State and U.S. Territory Attorneys General offices. Over the next few days, every single partner store will also be contacted.

        He is welcome to post here, he digs a deeper hole every time he posts, and others see how stupid it would be to join Amway. LOL

    • There are a certain number of people in any society who are either willing to perpetrate a scam for personal gain or are too stupid to realize it is a scam. The science regarding the failure rate and financial loss is irrefutable. As you mature the stupid option will disappear for you so maybe you’ll have a change of mind. If not the first option applies to you.

  18. well good luck xD haha and naah im good ..like you say ima go watch those cd”s so i could get brainwashed xD
    and why are you saying im scared? im replying xD
    are you like Mr. tex2 little follower or what?haha

    • Chris is “good” because ignorance is bliss. LOL

      Not sure about the brainwashed part, I think you have to have something to be able to clean it…LOL

      Definitely not scared, just stupid. LOL

      Looks to me that he has his own thoughts and ideas, but since we both follow the truth, so it may appear that way. LOL

      • Im stupid look whose talking smarta$$ xD
        So we’ll see dude ..hope you succeed and destroy amway …which you wont Mr. Know it all xD

      • I cleaned up your “potty mouth,” I hope your mommy sees your post soon, so she can clean out your mouth with soap (SA8, Dishdrops, Satinique, Pursue, Body Series, LOC, Tri-zyme, take your pick, or any combination of the above, there’s PV/BV in all of them!).

        Yes, we WILL see what happens to the ATS. I may not know it all, but I know far more than enough to stop the Amway Tool Scam.

    • Chris doesn’t appear to be coherent, even his “clarification” doesn’t make sense. But then, Amway doesn’t make sense when you know the facts, so he’s a perfect match! LOL

      • Well I guess xD
        But guess what I got another downlline and I showed them this blog :D haha omg later on dude

      • Below Me, if ignorance is bliss, people like Chris are ecstatic! You just can’t help stupid, but you can point it out to others. LOL

    • And im 19 above 25%
      This seems to work so far. Wait im only 19. What will it be like in 5 years. Lets see. One year to break 25%
      Five years… maybe 26% ? mmm..
      ‘D

      • Lol sweet. Props to you man. My tummy hurts from all this negativity these people are posting. You’re an example of somebody doing it right.

      • I thought Silver said s/he weren’t going to post to this forum any longer. LIAR. They’ll make a good LCK someday. LOL There is no “negativity” on this blog, only facts. From a scammer’s perspective, that means negative, and it results a broad smile across my face. LOL

    • Amway is a business, albeit a business in defyiance of FTC guidelines, for the few at the top bilking 99% of others. IBO’s are the willing if uninformed victims of a fleecing based on science based facts.

  19. I knew Amway was a scam back in the early 1970’s when they first started. I got their first kit, the products were sub-standard, and I never felt ethical about selling them so I just ate the cost and turned my back on the whole thing. They kept contacting me and I kept saying that I changed my mind – as a Christian who felt she had to be honest before the Lord – and eventually they stopped.

  20. If all such freaky stuffs against amway is true and happening ten y is t amway company still running and making good profits in more than 80 companies you got to look up to your own back before giving a mouthfull of whizz!!.
    Prove your point first and speak later!!.

    • Bernie Madoff was making “good profits” before he was sentenced to 150 years in prison. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of facts on this blog. I’ve already proved my point first, and now I’m speaking later. Don’t ask me to prove anything until you prove the facts wrong. Love your “mamasboy” email address, it speaks volumes! Any other idiots out there who want to make stupid comments?LOL

      • Translating idiots is difficult, but I’ve seen enough of them to know they are trying to make a point without facts. LOL

  21. I just graduated from college 2 month ago. I have heard of many negative comments and also some positive ones on the internet. Because there were equal dispute to Amway IBOs. I decided to try it out to see the result of being part of Amway. If I would lose or earn Money. I joined Amway when the person told me that I would be able to make couple of hundred a month if I follow their teaching. So I did, I followed my upline, and let her do all the interviews to my friends. FYI I work full time 40+ hrs a week, and I did this as a side thing about 10 additional hrs a week, just for interviews and bring people to presentations. Then results came. I hit above 600 PV at the 9% bracket in 20days, and I recruited 3 people into my team. I calculated how I was going to be paid for this. And I realized, it is true I didn’t make much money for all of that work. With the bonce check and retail profit I made selling to others is about $200 + this past month. I wouldn’t say it is a lot but it made an income in addition to my working income. I’m going to driving to my downlines house to help them do their grand business opening just like what my upline did for me. I made $50+ retail profit just from selling products at my grand opening. Amway is a business, you get paid for how much PV you and your downline makes. If one person can make 7500 PV without recruit anyone down their line, the person who sponsored them can still be qualified as a diamond. Its a business that depends on continue earnings of PV monthly with or with out regard of having a lot of people down your line. But the more people in the business the more PV point is likely to occur and the more PV point will mean more money for you and the person above you. But once an organization grow bigger, there needs control to maintain everyone’s monthly PV. The CD and books continue to motivate the downline people to make more PV, and get more people to do the same. If people lose hope in this business, and decides to quit, then their PV=0 which mean the upline will lose significant amount of PV. This is also the reason that your upline will try to keep you in the business if you are generating good monthly PV into the line. Its a business where people are completely depended upon eachother for this business operation. Eventually when you have build up a huge network of thousands of people working towards their dreams to move up in the game, then you win the game. I suggest that if you find that your dream is no longer following amways’s dream. Then you should stay long enough to the point that you profit a good amount of money, and leave the game and invest it to some where else. I use to feel bad, because what if my downline never make it in this game, and I alone don’t even know if I can make it in this game. Then my mom told me, when people sign up to amway, they are an adult. They took the risk for an opportunity. It is no one to blame. The plan of the game was clearly shown to them before they sign up. So they should have a better idea shouldn’t they? It is good to have dreams, and chase after them. But you shouldn’t expect yourself to actually make it to the dream. Just do your best, and see what happens. If it is something you cannot handle anymore, just quit. Also my upline didn’t ask me to purchase CD or books, she give them to me for free. Because I’m not yet ready to purchase them and give them out to my downlines. I agree people in the business who records the CD makes good money from doing that. Well that how this business operates. Imagine you have over 100 people below you, and you want them to keep working for amway, do you think you would have the time to talk to them each indivdually? Of Course not, thats why CD are needed to do all the talking with you actually spending time to talk to each and everyone of them. People who made it to the top in amway business worked hard to get there. They started the same way anyone else did. And even when they have made it to the top, they still have to work at controlling their organization, and profitability for all the downlines. Its a full time job. Not an easy business. And of course not everyone can make it to the top. And those who don’t becomes a pro consumer and write their terrible experience on the internet. Life is a struggle, in any business and work you will face different issues. And everyone is trying to get to the top of something. Unless you are content with a stable government job that provides you middle income and average living. Otherwise, you should try to find another way to make money. Insurance company function the same way. Every sales a person make their manager above takes a percentage of their commission. Your pay check pays 30% tax to the government. When you eat at McDonald, you paid a percentage to the owner of McDonald. Same with amway, every sales you make, a person above you takes some,which makes everyone in the game a business. If everyone joined Amway, and just consume from them then everyone makes some money.

    • Hopefully this recent college graduate (obviously not an analytical type of degree – or English!) can read this entire site before making more ignorant posts. Here’s a few points:

      1. There is NOTHING on this site that indicates much money should be made at 600 PV,
      2. Notice how she doesn’t mention NET profit,
      3. 10 hours/week for a month or two isn’t much work,
      4. There hasn’t been enough time to go by for the 3 people to quit, she is still in the “honeymoon” stage,
      5. The “Grand Opening” is like one of the hooks you see on this blog, ongoing retail profit is very unlikely,
      6. Besides being an extremely rare instance, I don’t know what the point of this statement was, “If one person can make 7500 PV without recruit anyone down their line, the person who sponsored them can still be qualified as a diamond.”
      7. The main point of this site isn’t that tools are bad, it’s the intentional hiding of the amount of profit from tools compared to Amway, the impact on the net profit to the 99+% of IBOs, and the incentive for Amway to have high prices and low bonus payout.
      8. There is blame, it belongs to the LIARS.
      9. She doesn’t realize the upline is about to set the hook and reel her in by insisting she starts buying tools soon. The upline knows she can’t afford the the tools, so they are waiting for her to have something to lose, whether it is 600 PV or 1,000 PV, it WILL happen. After all, the upline literally can’t afford buy the tools for her and her entire group, nor can she expect her downline to buy the tools unless she does.
      10. This isn’t a game, it is a scam.
      11. In a legitimate business, the upline would be proud of the money made from tools. Why don’t they tell prospects the upline makes 2/3s to 9/10s or more from the tools compared to Amway, and the downline will operate at a net loss until they get past Platinum as a result? Duh.
      12. Ignorance is bliss, no person reading this needs to stay ignorant.

    • Ashley,
      how exactly do you, and I quote, “bring people to presentations”? Hmmm? Are you standing on a street corner screaming at cars when they drive by to come to your house for a ‘presentation’? Are you background checking these strangers? (explain the screening process). The hardest part about getting people into the business is lying and deceiving people into joining, to include not using the Amway name. You are correct in one thing; it’s not an easy business to get into. On a side note, one would expect better spelling from a college graduate. Is Amway selling degrees now? >scratching head<

    • Let’s examine the McDonalds analogy. If I am hungry and go to McD for a burger. McD. tells me if I buy 10 “special” burgers they will give me a commission on the purchase of these burgers. Magically I have now become a burger salesman and am earning an income. McD adds that if I enjoy this income I should share my success with someone else and I will be able earn over rides on their sales. My parents who want to be supportive and contribute to my success buy 10 burgers each. Now I’ve I am getting not only the commission on my personal burger purchases, but over rides on my parents burger purchases. I now may or may not realize that my costs are not being covered by my commissions. If I do, I come to the conclusion that if I could just get more people to sell burger under me my commissions might grow to where I could cover my cost of 10 burgers. Assuming others are as bright as me they will do the same. McD will sell thousands if not millions of burgers they otherwise would not have becoming a fast food giant. I am now making money due the countless number of unnecessary burger purchases of others, but I want to earn the big money. McD tells me that if I want to earn “big money” I need to attend special training. I’m all in for that. I pay a significant amount of money to attend a training. Even though I receive no real training, how can the hundreds or thousands of other people in the room be wrong? (Truth is many others are thinking the same thing but don’t feel safe to say anything). McD is now not only selling a ton of unnecessary burgers, they are now in the training business making millions “training” people. Now I am buying burgers I don’t need, paying for training that is nothing more than a sermon, I have to wonder if my parents and friends are feeling the same as me. Have I introduced them to a scam? I reach out to McD and ask them. They tell me that if they are upset with me, it is because they don’t support me and are too narrow minded to understand the great opportunity I have been given. McD and it the restaurant who showed me how to make money (while making money off of me” are my “real” friends. It all makes sense to me now; my family doesn’t love me, McD does. Still a little skeptical, I do some research and find this site or others which show that 99% of people lose money in this business. McD then tells me that those people are failures. Do I have what it takes to be a winner of am I going to become a quitter? Who do I believe; my lying eyes or McD? When one wakes up to this reality is dependent on the person and their ethics. McD is counting on this personal journey to actual common sense taking longer so that a new generation of well intended dreamers can take their place.

      • your burger theory is just silly. This is something you would tell to someone you were trying to sign up in the Scamster company. Your not just asking someone to buy a burger. Heck, lets go a step further and replace “burger” with energy bars. Hey, I’m down for that. Sell energy bars to other people. Very easy! Unfortunately, this is where Scamter company comes in and takes over your home. You don’t just buy burgers or bars, you have to buy everything you would normally buy in a store from the Scamster company. This is where you flip your house upside down and buy all the overpriced products from their website. Sorry, but I’m not blowing my nose with Scamster tissue or wiping the other hole with their brand of sandpaper. There are much, much cheaper and better quality products than what they sell. To be successful in Scamster, make sure to buy your monthly quota to keep your uplines smiling big. There’s nothing better than falling asleep with headphones on while listening to a Scamster cd to keep me focused. Your “burger” theory is just another lie to make light of flipping your house upside down.

      • Actually, the burger/energy bar theory isn’t silly at all, it is very close to what actually happened. When the Woodward/TEAM group was growing at a huge rate in the early to mid 2000s, they were pushing only 2 Amway (called Quixtar back then) products, the meal bars and XS energy drinks. The saying was “Sip twice, eat and profit – the STEP plan. The reasons for this were:
        1. It was simple and easy to follow,
        2. There was relatively high PV/BV on these products,
        3. They could spend more of their time, energy, and money on Orrin’s tool scam.
        Brilliant, if you consider pure unethical, immoral, and illegal behavior capable of being considered brilliant!

      • Sorry you don’t recognize sarcasm. The burger story was intentionally ludicrous and simple to point out how ludicrous the MLM story is. It was not intended to make light of the scam.

      • And that’s my point, that no matter how ludicrous a pretend story is, it can’t come close to the real ridiculousness of reality.

      • I was referring to the other response with the sarcasm comment. I’m not sure if my post was clear with the analogy. We shouldn’t be arguing with each other when the real opponent is MLM. I chose the burger analogy because I have often seen McD used as an example of franchising works and how MLM is just like it. I think my representation in closer to the reality than that MLM is just another like a McD franchise. Again not directed at you, sorry if my analogy missed the mark in some way.

      • I assumed you were referring to the other comment. I WANT lively discussions here, as long as people don’t ignore the comments/questions that others have made, everything is okay (with the exception of profane/obscene language, see #7 in the agreement).

    • And im a high school graduate. Im 19 earth orbits old.
      I singed in Amway at age 18. I am now 25% level in this business. That took long. I wonder what would happen in the next 2 years. Heck i might just quit now, this business does not work?
      ‘D

      • Tom needs to go back to school, his spelling sucks. I wonder which high school allowed him to graduate?LOL

        It makes little difference what level you are, if you don’t make a net profit and most of the people in your group are operating at a net loss. LOL

        I suggest everyone “orbits” (reads) this entire blog one time, then you may have a clue. LOL

    • I agree that there is a level of risk just like in any business. There is no guarantee that someone will make it to the top (diamond). But when you are forced to buy books and tapes, that you don’t need; then it is a pyramid scheme. Plus, I doubt it that you are a college grad, because your writing and grammar is atrocious. If you are lying that you are a college grad, what other B.S. is in your post?

      • Rayrod,

        Let’s be clear, nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to buy the tools. What I experienced was the upline said things such as, “The tools are optional, but so is success,” and “I don’t know anybody who had any kind of success without the tools,” and “The tools are the shortcut to success,” and “The tools are like using a nail gun instead of a hammer to build a house,” etc., etc., etc. Right? Also, the minute I stopped ordering tools, the upline completely ignored me, even though there are specific Amway rules that this should not occur. However, the tools are RICO fraud, not a pyramid scheme. The pyramid scheme is the overpriced products are nearly impossible to sell, even at distributor cost, so most of the consumption is internal (Amway’s own study showed external sales to be 3.4% of the total, and I know most of that was either sympathy purchases from friends and relatives and people gaming the system by having products shipped to nearby friends and relatives. I also have my doubt about ashley being a college grad, but in the end it doesn’t matter, a scam is a scam. And Amway is a two in one scam, the tool scam RICO fraud and Amway product illegal pyramid.

      • Yes – you’re right no one put a gun to my head, and the moment I stopped ordering the so-called tools I was ignored. But what I read back in 2005, if you are forcing people to buy the tools (books and tapes) it is considered a Pyramid Scheme. Don’t mean to be contradictory but that’s what I read in that court decision.

      • Do you recall who your upline Diamond was? Also, the name of the tool system they pushed? If you have a link to the court decision you read in 2005, please provide it and I’ll post it. However, what Amway told me in the same timeframe is the people making money from the tools are the sellers and those buying them are the customers, just as in any other retail/customer relationship. A pyramid scheme is where most of the money doesn’t come from retail sales to external customers, which fits the Amway product model much more than the tools. However, the tools are still RICO fraud because of the cooperation among the high level IBOs and Amway to make several times more from the tools than from Amway and not notifying prospects and downline of this fact.

  22. Thanks for your blog about this company I was approached via fb and met with a ibo(a young Indian couple) yesterday about joining the business they never mentioned the name Amway…I found out more about the company researching on the Internet. They presented as if they started their own business and wanted help selling nutritional products and claimed these same products improved their health. When they sought me out on fb they said they were looking for people in the medical industry to help them on a small business project that they were starting….real smooth sounded real legitimate. They gave me a couple samples the twist cap juice thingys and the sports bar to try. I haven’t tried it yet because I read that the company is being sued for making false claims about having real servings of fruits and veggies and using artificial sugar. Definitely not something that I want to put my name on….everyone I know, knows I’m a health nut wouldn’t feel good for me to sell people I love crap.

    • Maria,

      Thanks for your comment, it is people like you that makes the effort worthwhile. For every “thank you,” I know there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of others who learn about the Amway Tool Scam.

      Much like Herbalife, most of the IBOs with Amway are people who don’t read/speak English very well, mostly Hispanics, some Orientals, and a handful of Indians (India style Indians). People like you find sites like mine and don’t join, for obvious reasons.

      I suggest you contact everybody (except known, current Amway IBOs) you know on Facebook and inform them Amway is a scam, and direct them to this blog to understand why Amway is a scam. Encourage them to do the same to everybody they know on Facebook, and for the people they contact to do the same, etc., and together we can shut down this SCAM.

    • I was reading an article about Guerrilla Warfare the other day; reminded me of IBO’s (Amway distributors). Their tactics, lies, and deceits are getting better every day! Got to watch out for them rascals and look for the signs! (business plan, opportunity, starting my own company, etc…). Glad you did some investigative work. From my personal experience, you may need to file a restraining order from people who show you the plan because they are relentless and won’t take no for an answer. I’ll mail you some mace if you need some.

  23. LOL, this page is ridiculous ! Obviously people who did not put any effort and wanted to stay ignorant are the ones complaining in this page thinking that “they know”. I see comments saying they got 16 bucks after purchasing 300 of product , Hello! Do you get that where buy your basics at any store?? Exactly . Amway is perfectly structured . Inform your selves first and call Amway directly for any questions instead of looking into pages like this who are just (nonsense)

    • oh no no no no. You cannot buy “the basics” at any store you want. To be rich and successful in Amway you must purchase everything you need in life from Amway; everything from Amway acne cream, to toilet paper, mind altering tapes/cds and beyond. I copied the following from the Amway website. Get ready for a real shocker here folks. Amway’s prices: Dental floss ($20.94), Toothbrush ($10), Toothpaste ($5.20), Oral rinse ($9), Shampoo ($17), Conditioner ($17), Shower Gel ($11.50). Get the picture here? Who can afford those prices? Donald Trump perhaps? This is why people who join fail after a short while. They can’t afford to buy their monthly requirements of products. $20 for dental floss…..good lord. Keep telling yourself that “Amway is perfectly structured” there buddy and I’ll sell you my used Amway toothbrush for $5 (that’s 50% off).

    • People like these habe no idea what Amway has ciming looking brighter then at any time in life. A new way of Amway, our country was founded in a way. Now with amway headed to be involved in space. After succesful missions take place like the reacent one to Mars.

      • Tom has no idea I’ve heard this “Amway is new, changed” so many times over the years. It’s still a scam. The space comment says it all, he’s obviously lost in space. LOL

  24. I was approached by a friend of mine yesterday – she wanted me to join Amway. I know several folks who joined but never really saw how they profited. I’ve purchased products from Amway and while the products were good, I didn’t want to join because I knew how overpriced these products are, but I digress… My friend gave me all the wonderful, good facts about how great the company is and how much money you can make and I wouldn’t have to “sell”… in the back of my head I’m saying, “Is she for real?” MLM is all about selling and recruiting which I have no incentive to do at all. My thing is, if the products are so wonderful, it should sell itself. She told me I would need $250.00 to start and it’s refundable if I decided it’s not for me. I had time to think about it and do some research and weigh the pros and cons and in all honesty, I will not involve myself Amway. Now that I’ve read this blog, it only confirmed my suspicions and I’m normally labeled “Polly Positive” because I see the bright side of everything. This, however, raised my eyebrows. It’s very time-consuming, and all this recruiting and begging and losing friends in the process for a meager $350 or $400 check every few months is not worth it….

    • Loretta, thanks for telling your story. You made my day. I know for every post like yours, 100s to 1,000s of people have made similar decisions after being educated by this and other blogs (although this one is, by far, the most comprehensive and fact-based, just my humble and very informed opinion!). I recommend you, and anyone else reading this, forward my blog link to every non-IBO you know, and have them do the same, and so on, it’s called networking! LOL

      By the way, how did you find my blog? Also, what ethnic group is your friend a part of? Caucasian, Oriental, Hispanic, other? Thanks.

      • oh please probably caucasian, what’s the sense of THAT question “TEX” from the south ! And with all the partners, esso and all you get in your money right away !

      • If Miss Sealy bothered to read this blog, she would already know most people involved in Amway in the U.S. are NOT caucasian, they are an ethnic group that speaks/reads little to no English, or they would find sites like this that educate them on the Amway Tool Scam and illegal pyramid. By the way, there is no need to put a space between a word and an exclamation mark! LOL

        Actually, it is supposed to cost $50-$60 to join, so Miss Sealy is being lied to in this area as well.

  25. I guess a simple comment about Amway would be the fact that I just wouldn’t want to fight against the Costco and Walmart giants. I can see your points, but my overall opinion is that the network marketing business model in general is sound. I’d just pass on this company in particular and look for a better one that doesn’t play in the hillbilly era.

    • Jason, I look at Amway as the tree trunk and the rest of MLM as smaller branches. While I comment mainly on Amway, I view most MLMs as similar in their operations: lack of retail sales is almost univeral and tool scams are often present. While difficult, the best way to chop down a tree is to go after the trunk, not the small branches. The rest of MLM will fall apart or fall in line when Amway is chopped down. I’m not sure what the “hillbilly era” part of your comment means, as Amway is the largest MLM on the planet and has the largest known tool scam.

  26. So I am introduced to an Executive Regional Director at my first big training meeting. My “boss” clearly wants to impress me by introducing to a successful power player. She has enough cake makeup, silicone, botox and bleach to be declared a hazardous waste site. She stares blankly at me and in a very sweet voice says “I remember you” without ever blinking. Hating to ever give a one word answer and predisposed to being a smart ass, I want to reply “maybe Cheetahs or The Spearmint Rhino 20 years ago. Instead, I reply “that would be impossible. This is my first meeting”. Still not blinking, she smiles and says nothing. Uncomfortable with the silence and concerned that I have offended, I try to continue the conversation with small talk. She continues to stare unblinking and walks away without replying. Later that evening my “boss” wants to again impress me, this time I am going to meet another Executive Regional Director who is also running the meeting in his other role as Executive Trainer. The burly guy who regaled us with stories of his high school and JC football exploits, and his rags to riches story after a less than stellar academic performance at said institutions says “I remember you”. Concerned about offending again I choose a much safer reply and again attempt to engage in small talk about football. I can barely get the words out before his is gone. The next day, successful HS footballs hero with a admitted learning disability and interpersonal skills that stretch as far as a rehearsed script can go tells a small group of “high potential” prospects that for the bargain fee (30% off if I sign up today) of $3000 I can attend his skills training workshop for a lifetime. Now it becomes clear, “I remember you” was not just a chance error, it was a statement designed to make me feel important that such a luminary of business actually remembered me. It is part of the “numbers game” where you if you repeat the same crap to a whole lot of people, you will actually hook somebody once in a while. How could 2 mindless robots say the
    exact same thing? They must be trainers or trainees of the brilliant $3000 “road to success” training that provides you with scripted responses to any number of questions and situations beyond the standard “how can I explain such great wealth opportunity over the phone, you need to view our video or attend a meeting”, “how can a business that has been around this long be a scam”, or “have you seen the corporate structure model, it looks just like a pyramid too”. Lesson; when everyone has the same answers to every question, they aren’t answers, they are programmed BS from the Stepford MLMers that has no relationship with the truth. Run like a burrito through a Tijuana tourist.

    • Although this was not an Amway experience, Denis hit upon several issues that are present with Amway and many other MLMs. Great story, Denis! I’ve had most of your experiences with Amway. LOL

      • I should clarify. My posts are not about Amway. I came across tex2 during my research after another I was involved in another MLM scam. The companies may change, but the tactics and damages remain the same.

    • brings back memories of my first (and last) Amway gathering with my sponsor, sponsors sponsor, all the up to the guest speaker; the almighty Diamond. I was all set to take notes, had my notepad with me…all ready to write down the secrets to being successful. He spoke for about an hour and a half or so, talking about where he grew up, how much money he has, and where he goes hunting. After about 50 minutes, he drew 5 circles on the board and said “This is you, this is the folks you sign up. Thats about all there is to it folks.” He then went back to his stories about hunting. This was when the light came on and I said “wait a second here. I’m wasting my time with this garbage?”
      Great story Denis. It reinforces my opinion about the Scamster corporation. I huge waste of time and money.

      • I think the point is the diamond is enabling your upline to scam you. Push the tools, advocate “buy from yourself and teach others to do the same,” (i.e., retailing not recommended, let alone required). If the dream is big enough, the (scamming) facts don’t (or can’t be) count(ed).

  27. Okay, time for the voice of reason.
    Amway MAY be a waste of time for SOME people. Ultimately, its an investment. If you pay the registration fee and buy cds and books and go to functions, but you don’t LISTEN and actually APPLY EFFORT, then you’re going to fail. AMWAY DOESNT SCAM YOU. ONLY YOU SCAM YOURSELF! If you’re not willing to put in the effort by making actual sales and expanding your network, you’re wasting your own time and money. I’m sorry to say, but all the people who gave up in Amway are losers who decided to quit when they faced any sort of challenge or adversity. So they come onto here to moan and bitch about it, pointing the finger at Amway for their own personal failures.

    My friend and his wife are 24. He joined at 19, and the two of them bought their own house at 21 years old. 21! Most people are still living at home or just scratching by in an apartment at that age. And now, the money they make Is substantial enough for his wife to quit her full time job in August 2014. She’s gonna be a free woman by the age of 25.

    Now some of you might be thinking “I don’t wanna hear your success story crap.” And that’s fine. Ultimately, my point is that the amount of money you make is a DIRECT reflection of the effort you put into it. So if you wanna moan and bitch about the money you wasted, don’t point the finger at Amway. You’re the one who invested money without taking it seriously. Its not a get rich quick scheme. Its an opportunity. You can make 6 or 7 figure income if you choose, or just get an extra 1000 a month, or even just a few hundred a month. You’re obviously not gonna quit your day job til you’ve gotten it to a point where your business can support you fully. If Amway was really a scam, they wouldn’t have the credibility that they do all around the world.

    Hopefully now you realize that just because there are groups of people on the internet who have a negative view on Amway, doesn’t make their opinions truth. The truth is that YOU decide if you fail or succeed. And the people spouting this crap about a ‘scam’ are the lazy losers who quit when the going got tough. Not only are they lazy quitters, they’re also cowards who can’t take responsibility for their own failures. Do you really wanna take advice from those kinds of people? still working an average job in the rat race? Seriously people. Smarten up. It really sickens me to see that this website even exists. People have succeeded in Amway. OBVIOUSLY ITS POSSIBLE. So if you want to learn how to succeed, surround yourself with successful people.

    You’re not gonna learn how to succeed if you take advice from quitters.

    • Silver obviously either didn’t:
      1. Read this blog before commenting, or
      2. Understand what s/he read

      Notice s/he didn’t challenge a SINGLE fact on this blog. QED – LOL

      • Silver Marinus is right hun, it’s the best investment that’s out there, and I forgot to add, ask and look what type of fruits that are in the person’s tree that’s got a bad opinion about Amway, what you have a great financial situation ? I know bankers that are broke ’cause they don’t even know how to manage their $, why does the casier at my bank broke ? Shouldn’t she know the how to’s to manage his/her money by working there ? even someone on minimum wage learns how to manage their money by reading the right books (that we find in amway) Look at the personS situation before listening… Are you going to ask a plumber wich car to buy in 2014 or a garagist ? Hello ! Let’s be smart ! and unfortunatly it’s not in school that you’ll learn the best ways…

      • “it’s not in school that you’ll learn the best ways…”
        you will learn grammar, spelling, sentence structure in school. If you’re lucky maybe TEX2 will translate your reply so we can all understand your mess

      • Miss Sealy doesn’t understand I’m not her “hun,” and probably doesn’t understand she’s being ripped off, just like Silver. LOL

        I have a MUCH better financial situation after leaving Amway.

        All of the other stories are that, just stories, unrelated to the ATS. Typical of these financial rapists. She bought the lies, hook, line, and sinker. LOL

      • I won’t touch one letter of her words, I want this idiocy to be on full display! It reinforces the concept of her complete lack of credibility and utter stupidity.

    • The TRUTH is that over 99% of people do not make money in any MLM. Are you trying to sell that 99% of people fail because they didn’t try. Those that do make money, make it on the backs of other people who lose money. If you have 100 recruits on average 99 of them will lose money on your advice, while you are earning off of them, Given these facts, If you have a conscience, this business is not for you. If you are willing to take advantage of others as a means to support yourself (highly unlikely and immoral) then go ahead and take a 1 in a 100 chance that you will make something and alienate all of your friends and family. I in the meantime will continue to try and educate people about the facts that you keep from them and hope that the government acts appropriately and protects people from the lies.

      • Niel obviously either didn’t:
        1. Read this blog before commenting, and/or
        2. Understand what he read

        Notice he didn’t challenge a SINGLE fact on this blog. QED – LOL

      • Progress! We went from “Very well said Silver” to “Well said Silver” in 12 hours. I can’t wait until tomorrow morning, perhaps it will be “You said it Silver.” LOL

    • Silver,
      “facing any sort of challenge or adversity”, as you put it, means following your uplines advice and running out of money. People want to be rich, its what most anyone would want. If a rich person tells you to buy amway tools and you will be making millions in no time, people will do it! Once people realize how much money they’ve blown on this, they stop putting any more “effort” into the business because they simply cannot afford it anymore. Buying all the scamster tapes, cds, book, and seminars end up making people thousands of dollars in debt. Don’t give me any “following your dreams” speech as that sorta talk is what IBO’s tell their new recruits to keep them buying scamster tools.
      As I was saying, you cannot put effort into something that’s making you broke. All the hundreds of people who sign up are all told to buy amway tools to make themselves rich. They quit when the money runs out, not from being lazy or lack of effort. Quitters are the smart one’s who realize they were being scammed and got out before filing for bankruptcy. The only people that make any money in amway are what I call “snake oil salesman” who lie, deceive, and tell you what they want you to hear.

      • I agree with all of that, AND the flip side of that coin is the upline LCKs are making FAR more from the tools than from Amway, so when they show IBOs and prospects their “goodies,” most of the money came from the ATS. Also, Amway can keep product prices high and bonus payout low, as the upline isn’t going to rock the ATS boat.

  28. Oh I see. This forum has a comment moderation system. So basically he can control the opinions that are expressed. Thats pretty stupid. Are you a manipulative control freak? Oy. I’m done with this forum. Peace out. Enjoy a life of sub-mediocrity.

    • The comment moderation only controls opinions that are in violation of my agreement with Amway. That’s pretty smart. I don’t control anybody’s information, unless it violates my agreement with Amway. Your false information proves my point. LOL You’re done with this forum because you will be buried by the truth if you keep posting. Enjoy a life of bankruptcy. LOL

  29. to denis grady, obviously you haven’t done any MLM. And if you did, you didn’t do it right, the only person you should be mad at, is YOU. Ask yourself and every “99%” of the poeple you know that’ve failed doing it, how many hours or nights have they really done, how many books have they read, how many reunions have they attended ? You know what, I’ve been doing this with my husband for a year and a half now and I can’t believe how much we’ve gained since, not only moneywise, I’m talking about our self-esteem, and how to manage our money, how to deal with all types of poeples, how to make friends, how to respect one another and how to GIVE BACK. You learn discipline and how to share with others…

    • I think Denis has done enough MLM to know most of them are scams. How much net profit has Miss Sealy made? It’s probably a negative number. The self esteem is a mirage, they will drop you like last week’s newspaper if she stops buying tools, the “manage money” part is to maximize the amount of money the upline can steal via the ATS, but I will give them credit for how to deal with all types of people, unfortunately the word “deal” is used to manipulate people into being ripped off, as well as the “make friends,” the “respect one another” and “GIVE BACK” bloviating. All she has to do is ask her upline how much money they make from the tools, and see how proud they are to tell her.

    • “If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money.” Directly from the FTC web site. Does your income come from retail sales (and retail sales DO NOT include sales to your downline)? If not, then you are violating the law. That is my first response.

      • Bingo. The key point in the above quote is “and your sales to them,” as many MLMs claim as long as the upline doesn’t make money from a new person during the initial signup, everything is okay. Amway’s own study showed 3.4% was retailed, and I KNOW that paltry number is inflated, as I and many others were taught how to fake out the computer to record products we used for self consumption were retailed.

    • I have been in 2 MLM’s but never recruited a sole. Both times I purchased or sold a product that I thought had value. Both times I successfully sold or used the product. I left both because I saw how they were selling dreams of riches to large groups of dreamers who did not understand nor could afford to become involved. My conscience would not allow me to perpetuate this fraud on others. Personally, I have been successful in every venture that I have chosen to undertake. None of those successes were dependent on the failure of others. Are you that self deluded that you really believe that a system with an almost certainty of failure is a problem with people? When you sell the “opportunity”, do you tell prospects that their chances of success are less than 1%? If you don’t then you are nothing more than a con man.

      • A key point to remember is the only thing worse than failing at Amway is succeeding at Amway. If you “succeed” it means you are ripping off numerous others (con man), if you “fail” it means only you got ripped off. I failed, and can’t express how happy that I did, I shutter to think what I may have become had I “succeeded.”

      • Well said. When success is reliant on the failure of others, it can only be deemed success by the soulless. Even if just one current member leaves due to a bout of conscience because of the factual information on sites like this; it is worth the effort. I they choose to continue knowing the facts presented here they get what they deserve, either in this life or the next.

    • I am not mad. I don’t know how you determined that a list of factual statements can be interpreted as anger. I am determined. Determined to let those who are considering this business are entering a business that is immoral and based on the FTC’s own interpretation, illegal. Determined to have the government enforce the laws they make to protect consumers. I will however dance on your financial grave when you are shut down or go broke paying for unneeded product, reunions, pep rallies and have no social network outside of your fellow hucksters. Since you are here, you are now aware of your transgressions and deserve no sympathy.

  30. I must us translator. My language is not too different from you own. I could write in my language. The words would be almost the same, but you could not possibly understand completely.
    One must spend time in United Kingdom to do so. I would think so that I could be lacking knowledge in the American English language. My apologies please

      • Can anybody help me? Can you see ANYTHING from Niel’s link that would indicate that “Amway is very healthy for business environment?” I can’t, I can only see stupidity. I can see a stupid answer to the question of the definition of a pyramid and where the overpriced products are manufactured, so that Amway can rip people off for the money they have left over from their upline ripping them off via the Amway Tool Scam tools. The other 3 questions on his link haven’t even been answered. LOL.

      • Actually, I’m not trying to have an intelligent conversation at all. I am pointing out the idiocy of Niel’s points for all to see, and the translating software has very little to do with the conversation, because what he is saying is what many other IBOs say. In fact, I’ve seen even worse use of the English language from native Americans, which speaks to the educational level of the typical IBO! Also, I have a policy of posting every single comment that doesn’t conflict with my agreement with Amway, after I kicked their big fat corporate butt in court. The only exception I’ve made (once), is when a poster repeatedly refuses to answer questions, which Niel has NOT been guilty of doing.

      • Yes, you have to go to court when you are sued. We ended up settling after a year and a half of Amway’s legal games before the trial started, and the agreement guarantees they can’t sue me ever again, unless I either break the agreement or do something that is clearly illegal, such as steal one of their delivery trucks! If you would like to discuss their disgusting, frivolous, SLAPP lawsuit or anything else, my Skype is texlckbuster. Email me at stoptheamwaytoolscam@yahoo.com to set up a meeting. Alternatively, I have a conference number that won’t cost you anything more than what you pay for a long distance call to southern California, where the call originates, the company is freeconferencecall.com. You can even keep your number confidential by dialing *67 before you dial the number.

  31. In terms of illegal business scheme, Amway is not. There was nation wide lawsuit in 80´ about legitimacy of MLM system and the system itself represented by the Amway as the biggest company was found legal and in fact very healthy for business environment.

    In terms of structure of the distributing network it is a pyramid – as any other big organization like school, government or army.

    Guidelines to determine wheter any company is a illegal pyramid are these:

    • This is another stupid post by Niel. Just random statements, and NOTHING to back them up. There are legal and illegal pyramids. The ones in Egypt are the legal ones. LOL

    • Niel,
      your posts are not true, but are funny and make me laugh. I”ll try to get you a 1% discount on your next purchase of Amway tools (retails for $1,000). You deserve it there buddy.

  32. I find it frustrating that none of the IBOs posting here seem to have looked into all the material about ATS provided on this site, because that is the point of this blog and an active discussion about it would be extremely valuable. At first I thought some of the host’s responses to posts were too harsh until I kept reading and realized that IBOs kept posting mostly subjective opinions that avoided the topic and are not conducive to this blog. It must be frustrating to collect and put info together just to have people ignore it. I have been an IBO for about a year and haven’t heard about much about the tools being a scam beyond people accusing the business support systems of being the source of the money used to pay out bonus checks. One of the things that rubs me the wrong way about the support org I’m associated with is the way that they claim they want people to get all the information, and it’s only the info they direct you to, pretty info. They certainly look down upon gathering info on the web, and whenever I tell them I took a gaze at some rough n’ tumble chats on the net they get all concerned. This struck me as alarming from the beginning, in a business where conviction is the most valuable asset to have aren’t I supposed to be able to handle reading anyone’s opinions or facts presented? I guess their tactics worked to an extent, because while I’ve retained my skepticism I clearly hadn’t dung deep enough into research online if I hadn’t even heard of ATS. I have admit I was culprit to emotionally driven reasoning, I really want network marketing to work. I struggle with chronic pain and am not career driven, so while I consistently was bothered by aspects of the organization and and really don’t have as much drive for material wealth as is implicitly encouraged, I am extremely driven by the idea of working few hours and making enough money to take care of a family and my health. So I complied to their suggestions and began to look only at positive sources. Now I find this site, and the volume of evidence towards corruption being present is ample. I spent the last few evenings going through alot of it, reading pages and pages of lawsuit documents partially to make sure they weren’t falsified. I especially enjoyed Rich De Vos’s tape concerning the tool business becoming a symbiotic parasite that needs to get cleaned up. Of course, the lawsuits show that it didn’t get dealt with. IBOs at the diamond level higher have too much invested to file a lawsuit against Amway frivolously. I was reading a report on Michigan radio website about a recent settlement, the one that lasted 7 years, and it failed to mention the fact that the IBOs in question were very accomplished in the industry, or any information regarding the nature of the lawsuit, which exposes ATS presence. Just the fact that Rich made a tape about this problem should be enough evidence that this is something all distributors should at least be aware of, if that were so I believe these lawsuits would come to their attention. I found that tape to reverberate much of my other frustrations with my group, especially the prevalence of religion in their teachings and pressures to conform to the system. I kept thinking, how do they possibly believe that unabashedly promoting Christian/conservative values would be lucrative in a business that just needs anybody’s participation to function? Based on a post I read I realized that they are targeting an ideological demographic because part of the product they are selling is association for like minded people. I don’t fit their demographic, so alot of things they promote would hinder my business! All that time they talk about their personal life and political/spiritual opinions could’ve been spent on talking about specific aspects and technicalities about the business that people are too lazy to learn themselves. Isn’t that what a real business seminar would be like? (I don’t actually know, surprise!). Anyways I’ve digressed into my own complaints with their subject matter, which either way does not justify the financial abuse of the system. Maybe a day will come when they charge less money for functions and audio, and they actually talk about business matters like class action lawsuits against the corporation, treat IBOs like respected members of a business entity instead of perpetuating their blindness by assuring them that the key to success is largely associating with the “right” people. The right people being those who don’t much curiosity and in many ways not much information in their own career choice. Do you have any faith that a reform of the Amway corporation and partner support organizations could occur? I know that you assert that Amway has thoroughly evolved into a scam due to it’s continual symbiotic relationship with the tool organizations over the past few decades, do you think that an IBO could find moderate success by hosting a business that informs it’s members about ATS and and tries to generate incomes using Amway?

    • sounds like [this IBO] ha[s] the drive, ambition and honesty to run a business. If I were [them] I would cut my losses with ole amway and put my effort into something else. It’s just too difficult to go scouring the malls looking for “recruits”. Hi, my name is John, would you be interested in joining Amway? SLAM!!!! You just cant be honest with this business >insert lies, deceptive practices, false promises<[edited to make the conversation directed towards the general population, and not an individual IBO. This is a “defense in depth” approach, as I believe ANY post on this public blog is directed towards the public, but I know the dishonest, immoral Amway lawyers too well to NOT use this approach. Also, everyone should keep in mind it isn’t the typical IBO who is doing the lying, as most of them aren’t aware they are saying false statements, but I GUARANTEE their upline knows they are teaching their downline to tell prospects false information in order to continue the scam.]

    • I appreciate wombat’s post, it is an unusually well thought out and honest post, and not the usual tripe I see on this blog. However, I am happy to post IBO tripe, as it shows how baseless and downright stupid these IBOs are, I will respond to everyone reading this blog with arrows (—>) following each sentence from Wombat. Notice Wombat did not challenge a SINGLE fact on this blog, except for some of the garbage some of the idiots have sprewed in the comments.

      I find it frustrating that none of the IBOs posting here seem to have looked into all the material about ATS provided on this site, because that is the point of this blog and an active discussion about it would be extremely valuable. —> Yes, it would be extremely valuable, but most IBOs are too busy being defensive to see the plain facts. Plus, they WANT to believe the fantasyland their uplines are feeding them, so damn the truth, full speed ahead.

      At first I thought some of the host’s responses to posts were too harsh until I kept reading and realized that IBOs kept posting mostly subjective opinions that avoided the topic and are not conducive to this blog. —> I am glad wombat kept reading, because the only thing I post here are the facts and the truth. It was stunning when, during one of the court hearins, Amway’s rules supervisor Karen O’Neill, stupidly testified in court what I was saying was “negative.” Of course it was “negative” from Amway’s RICO fraudulent position, but these were also TRUE, FACTUAL statements about Amway’s little (huge) tool scam. She is doomed to rot in Hades for eternity for that statement, among the other thousands of times she has supported the ATS druing her “career” with Amway.

      It must be frustrating to collect and put info together just to have people ignore it. —> What is frustrating is not being able to end the ATS and put all of these crooks in Bernie Madoff’s jail cell. However, I know I have helped hundreds, if not thousands, of IBOs who have found this blog on their own and quit, not to mention similar numbers of people who will never join, or are former IBOs who now understand it wasn’t their fault they “failed,” as they were being lied to by Amway and the upline about the true fraudulent business that Amway, and for that matter, most MLMs, represent.

      I have been an IBO for about a year and haven’t heard about much about the tools being a scam beyond people accusing the business support systems of being the source of the money used to pay out bonus checks. —> Why should anybody be surprised by this? The upline isn’t going to admit it, or their groups would disappear, and so would their profit. It’s ALL about the money, despite what the upline claims.

      One of the things that rubs me the wrong way about the support org I’m associated with is the way that they claim they want people to get all the information, and it’s only the info they direct you to, pretty info. —> Thanks to the internet, there is plenty of REAL information, and it is FAR from being “pretty,” unless you consider it pretty disgusting, ripping off people in this manner!
      ,
      They certainly look down upon gathering info on the web, and whenever I tell them I took a gaze at some rough n’ tumble chats on the net they get all concerned. —> Of course they get all concerned, they know I have the truth and they have their lies. There will a LOT of Amway employees and high level IBOs in Hades, I hope they enjoy REALLY hot weather….

      This struck me as alarming from the beginning, in a business where conviction is the most valuable asset to have aren’t I supposed to be able to handle reading anyone’s opinions or facts presented? —> This is the beauty of websites like this one, it equalizes their lies with the truth. It’s like splashing cleansing water on the Wizard of Oz Wicked Witch of the West.

      I guess their tactics worked to an extent, because while I’ve retained my skepticism I clearly hadn’t dung deep enough into research online if I hadn’t even heard of ATS. —> I suggest every person on the planet seek the truth about the ATS.

      I have admit I was culprit to emotionally driven reasoning, I really want network marketing to work. —> Nothing wrong with wanting your business to work, with the time, money, and effort ANY business requires.

      I struggle with chronic pain and am not career driven, so while I consistently was bothered by aspects of the organization and and really don’t have as much drive for material wealth as is implicitly encouraged, —> The material wealth aspect is a necessary ingredient to help prospects and IBOs alike to see the proof the business works, the problem is the vast majority of the “things” are from the ATS profit, and NOT Amway profit.

      I am extremely driven by the idea of working few hours and making enough money to take care of a family and my health. —> Who wouldn’t be attracted to this idea?

      So I complied to their suggestions and began to look only at positive sources. —> Remember, in the Amway context, “positive” equals lies. Just as “negative” means the truth. Substitute these two words and make your own decision whether to join or not.

      Now I find this site, and the volume of evidence towards corruption being present is ample. —> I thank Wombat for acknowledging the obvious, something many others aren’t able/willing to admit.

      I spent the last few evenings going through alot of it, reading pages and pages of lawsuit documents partially to make sure they weren’t falsified. —> And I suggest everyone else do the same, and note there are other sources to look at some of these lawsuits online, so feel free to confirm them yourself. Unlike the LCKs, I have no fear of the truth.

      I especially enjoyed Rich De Vos’s tape concerning the tool business becoming a symbiotic parasite that needs to get cleaned up. —> Rich DeVos will be the one standing next to the Devil himself, in case you don’t know what he looks like, although numerous pictures are available online.

      Of course, the lawsuits show that it didn’t get dealt with. —> There’s the understatement of the entire website. LOL!

      IBOs at the diamond level higher have too much invested to file a lawsuit against Amway frivolously. —> Why would the higher level IBOs WANT to file a lawsuit? Amway is their bait, so they can switch to bringing in their tool scam bucks.

      I was reading a report on Michigan radio website about a recent settlement, the one that lasted 7 years, and it failed to mention the fact that the IBOs in question were very accomplished in the industry, or any information regarding the nature of the lawsuit, which exposes ATS presence. —> If anybody has a link to this report, I would love to see it. I believe Wombat is referring to the Pokorny lawsuit. I was very frustrated with the Pokorny lawyers, as they “knew it all” when I tried to describe the significance of the ATS to them. But the Pokorny lawyers got their $15 million from Amway, with peanuts going to the IBOs who were ripped off, so all is good….NOT!

      Just the fact that Rich made a tape about this problem should be enough evidence that this is something all distributors should at least be aware of, if that were so I believe these lawsuits would come to their attention. —> I think this entire website should be required reading for every single prospect and IBO!

      I found that tape to reverberate much of my other frustrations with my group, especially the prevalence of religion in their teachings and pressures to conform to the system. —> Not to mention Amway instructed the upline IBOs to stop the religion and political nonsense they were spewing, and this was just a few years ago, much later than the 1983 tape. How disgusting is it that consummate LIARS are teaching religious principles?

      I kept thinking, how do they possibly believe that unabashedly promoting Christian/conservative values would be lucrative in a business that just needs anybody’s participation to function? —> They do this to make the downline think they are honest, pro-business people, when in fact they are RICO fraudulent scam artists. What better cover than religion/conservative values could there be? They don’t need everybody, they need enough people to believe their lies.

      Based on a post I read I realized that they are targeting an ideological demographic because part of the product they are selling is association for like minded people. —> The main “like-minded” people they are sponsoring now are Hispanics, because they, like all other ethnic groups who move to the USA, stick together, because you naturally trust those with common culture and language, this group doesn’t follow the internet as much, because they can’t afford it and don’t read/speak English. Just see the official Amway monthly online magazine: http://www.achievemagazine.com.

      I don’t fit their demographic, so alot of things they promote would hinder my business! —> their lies don’t fit anybody’s demographic, unless you ARE a liar. Let me be clear, I don’t care if you are Christian, any other religio, so no religion, conservatative or liberal, a liar is a liar is a liar, and I have no use for these LIARS.

      All that time they talk about their personal life and political/spiritual opinions could’ve been spent on talking about specific aspects and technicalities about the business that people are too lazy to learn themselves. —> These talks are a distraction, they couldn’t talk about specific aspect and technicalities, they would soon run out of things to say. In fact, they ARE teaching the specific aspects and technicalities of the business, the object is to distract people from the truth. What better way to do this than to endlessly “dream” of a similar lifestyle?

      Isn’t that what a real business seminar would be like? (I don’t actually know, surprise!). —> Yes, it is. That’s why most other MLMs use similar tactics, they are also scams, modeled after Amway.

      Anyways I’ve digressed into my own complaints with their subject matter, which either way does not justify the financial abuse of the system. —> Correct.

      Maybe a day will come when they charge less money for functions and audio, and they actually talk about business matters like class action lawsuits against the corporation, treat IBOs like respected members of a business entity instead of perpetuating their blindness by assuring them that the key to success is largely associating with the “right” people. —> The only way this will happen is if the U.S. government clamps down as the UK government did in 2008.

      The right people being those who don’t much curiosity and in many ways not much information in their own career choice. —> The “right” people are Hispanics and others who don’t read/speak English.

      Do you have any faith that a reform of the Amway corporation and partner support organizations could occur? —> No, except as forced by the government, as described above. Even then, I wouldn’t trust them.

      I know that you assert that Amway has thoroughly evolved into a scam due to it’s continual symbiotic relationship with the tool organizations over the past few decades, do you think that an IBO could find moderate success by hosting a business that informs it’s members about ATS and and tries to generate incomes using Amway? —> It depends what the definition of “moderate” success is, but the overpriced products and low bonus payouts are a HUGE obstacle. As described elsewhere on this blog, the LCKs couldn’t care less about the high product prices and low bonus payouts, and even more appropriately, they don’t want to “rock the boat” with Amway over this issue, they are too busy cleaning up with the ATS. And you won’t find any LCKs posting here, they would be buried by the truth. Take away the ATS, and the LCKs would be FORCED to demand lower prices and higher bonus payout. And this is why, the way things are currently arranged, the IBOAI and all of hte LCKs do NOT represent the IBOs’ best interests, they have a completely different set of incentives, namely, the ATS and NOT Amway products.

      I would be happy to respond to any additional questions anybody has, and will continue to direct my answers to the general population, and NOT to any individual or group of IBOs, such as by telephone call or email, as this would violate my agreement with Amway, the filthiest and scammiest company this planet has ever seen, ripping off 10s of millions of good and decent people for 100s of billions of dollars with the ATS RICO scam lies. Other than that, Amway is a great opportunity! LOL

    • [Edited to be directed to the general public]
      Wombat [seems] to have a moral compass. I applaud [his/her] willingness to take an honest look at the business they are in. Most people who get into MLM do so with good intentions. Those who make money are few though and most of those are soulless characters because they know the fraud they are committing. They know they can only make money off of others losing money. [Wombat does] seem to think there may be a way to do this business honestly and there really is not. ATS is only one fraud that is being perpetrated. I’m sure you’ve heard that “this is a numbers game”. The numbers are this and are actually admitted to by MLM’s in some fashion; “most people don’t succeed” (actual research has found over 99%) so you need to recruit every person you meet. Since you are asked to first approach your warm market, you are effectively dooming your friends and family to financial loss. [Wombat doesn’t] seem like the type to do this knowingly.
      You shouldn’t be surprised that those involved are deluded into ignoring facts in favor of faith, that is what MLM counts on and actively promotes with empty, meaningless drivel. 1. Why do 99% of people fail? MLM: those people are quitters who didn’t follow the system (wouldn’t steal from others, really, 9 out of 10 people are quitters!) 2. If this is illegal, how come it is allowed to exist? (you can go to any State Attorney General’s Office web site and read the rules on illegal pyarmid schemes and find that virtually every MLM violates the law. Lack of prosecution doesn’t make it legal and they discourage individual research because you will find plenty of prosecutions). 3. If it didn’t work how come it has been around so long? (Although theoretically, all pyramids fail under their own weight, there are generations of new victims and this is a large country. It works for a very few and they are the one’s promoting this for their own survival. 4. Those who don’t support you are actively working against your success. (Is trying to not be one if 99% who lose money really hate for you or just self preservation?) 5. You should be proud of making money in MLM. (Why do they avoid sharing what they actually do in favor of BS job descriptions such as entrepreneur, national recruiting specialist, IBO etc) The list is endless.
      MLM reminds me of an old joke about the man who is caught in bed with another woman by his wife and states, “who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? Good luck [to anybody reading this and] getting[/staying] all the way out, you are off to a good start.

  33. Just would like to know what you know about the ibo buisness I have some one who is pitching the biz to me and I’m looking for something to work for me to make money but I don’t want to be in something that’s not going to work can send me email 123xyz@yahoo.com [email altered to keep the crazies from emailing this person, if they want their email posted, email it to the comments section again.]

    • Here’s my return email to Jason; a private call is an open offer to any other non-IBO, and ANYONE can join a publicly announced conference call, as long as you don’t invite current IBOs on your own:

      Thanks for the request, I know a lot.

      To set up a conference call, propose a day/time in the comments below or by emailing me at stoptheamwaytoolscam@yahoo.com. Be sure to include the time zone in your proposed time, I live in the Central time zone.

      After we agree to a time, the conference number is 760-569-6000, the access code is 975016#. Dial *67 before dialing the number to keep your number confidential. The only cost is your normal long distance charge to the above southern California area code, there is no extra charge for the conference call itself. The number is from http://www.freeconferencecall.com.

      Alternatively, we can Skype, my ID is texlckbuster.

      Regards,
      Scott Johnson

      • You are a failure. You know little. After looking at the comments that you posted. I saw obvious failure. When you say ” I’ve seen even worse use of the English language from native Americans, which speaks to the educational level of the typical IBO! ” after one of Niel’s comments. Your ignorence is clearly reflected. Not only does that insult the natives in your country but, natives form every country. People who are wasting their time with an ignorant, basis, racist, failure who wants to collect as many people to fail with him because he failed. Also it’s weird that you said something about you wishing for a Amway lawyer to end up in -Hades for saying that what you said was negative in court. You are rather strange

      • Cosmic knowledge must be some alternate form of knowledge only known to the geniuses with Amway. Rather than making no sense at all trying to make a personal attack, try refuting the research and law that makes MLM a law breaking, fraudulent scam.

      • Cosmic Knowledge (aka, Lost in Space – LOL!),
        You call me a failure, but don’t describe WHY you have that false opinion! LOL
        What spoke “failure” to you about my comments, you nitwit? LOL
        You clearly weren’t following the thread and therefore made an error in the meaning of the word “native,” as it means, in the context of the thread, someone from America versus a foreigner. WHAT AN IDIOT!!! LOL
        Also, the word is “from,” not “form.” WHAT A STUPID IDIOT!!! LOL
        I didn’t say ANYTHING about “hoping” various Amway owners/employees/lawyers would end up in Hades, I stated flatly they WILL end up there, as they are LIARS, and that was the meaning of “negative,” – YOU STUPID FLAMING IDIOT!!! LOL
        Keep posting, LIS, I love posting stupid comments and ripping them to shreds! You are rather stupid….LOL
        Why don’t you also call into the call tomorrow so I can rake you over the coals verbally as well? LOL

  34. Yes I am the guy from Mlive. Here’s the fun. Edit this post if need be or dont even post it. I think I can help you but I only have 1.5 weeks to do so. Long story. What would you need to prove this scheme to the FTC. (Whistleblower protection, gotta love it). For your info, I am working at Amway currently. For now I wont tell you what part. And no…not legal…they ignored me. Idiots…I am sick of this place. One of my projects was to follow you online. Everything. I sent my report and all i got was jack back from them. Obviously they cared about it, right? Now i am being let go. wonderful…

    I have access to their archives. Meaning, lots of old papers and documents. I also can get at Jay Van Andels and Rich Devos’ old stuff. (They have an old WW2 M1 in a closet). I also have access to most of the old (some current)IBO profiles. This offer is only good til the 25th and contingent on what i am doing during the week. the sooner, the better…

    • I traded an email or two with this guy, but never got any information, and now he isn’t answering emails. Typical of Amway. Over promise and under deliver. Perhaps he got caught and punished. Or perhaps I have a bundle of information from him….

      • Don’t expect a reply, I think he’s long gone and was threatened by Amway after being caught. Turned out to be more of an Inspector Jacques Clouseau than a James Bond. LOL

  35. I was an Amway Distributor back in the early 80’s, when i was 18 thru 22. I left the company because I felt my up line were a bunch of stupid, silly, irresponsible little monkeys. When I opted to stop purchasing the so-called tools (Books and tapes), my Direct Distributor asked me why I stopped? I told him that I wanted to streamline my expenses, and the books and tapes were not really helping me to build my business. Then several months later I was told by my Direct Distributor that I was not his friend anymore. Geez. I already had some personal problems with my Amway Sponsor, I first decided to change sponsor, and to another line of sponsorship. I went to an Amway rally down in Va like always, I ran into a married couple from my former line of sponsorship. They asked me what happened to me, and I told them that I was having personal problems with my sponsor so I decided to change line of sponsorship. Then they told me that’s what they thought happened. That brought up red flags, and I asked them what did they say? They refused to repeat what was said of my leaving, but I could just imagine what they said. Something negative and false about me. That’s when I decided to leave the Amway business. I always thought this was a good company, but some people just gum things up. Just like at our place of employment, some people makes the place challenging to be there. After reading this, Amway is a big waste of time, and money. Even before I Googled Amway, and reading this blog. I started to remember my experience with Amway, and it really wasn’t a positive experience, Since I was 18, I learned a lot from my Amway experience about human nature. There’s always a silver lining in everything.

    Good luck to all.

    • Thanks for your input. Who was your upline Diamond(s), and what happened to your upline sponsor and Direct Distributor? Have you read enough of this blog to realize it’s ALL about the tool profit? Do you also realize Amway is aware of and benefits from the ATS?

      • My upline Direct Distributors divorced nine months after I left their line of sponsorship and ultimately left the business, and my sponsor and sponsor’s sister left the business a month later. I guess my sponsor left because of embarrassment. We were supposed to be friends, and this person went along with the false propaganda about me. Oh well, what goes around comes around. Don’t get me wrong I did stupid things as well, but I never entertained thoughts about hurting my sponsor. If I remember correctly, my upline diamond’s name was actually Diamond. She was a NASA Engineer, who married a guy whose surname was ‘Diamond’. Go figure. I think her first name was Peggy. She was in the Bill Britt line of sponsorship.

        I have known it was a tool profit since 1988, It was around my college graduation of that year, a year and a half later when I left the Amway business, I ran into a former associate of my original line of sponsorship in the NYC subways. He told me that once he made it to Direct Distributor, he was told that his sales goals were to sell the books and tapes, not the actual products like SA-8. He also left the business because he felt disappointed in the entire structure of the business; because of the sales goals.

        Several years ago around 2005, I was researching Amway to get back into the business. I read an article that there were several lawsuits in 1986, and the court’s decision was Amway is a Pyramid Scheme since they force their distributors (IBOs) to buy books and tapes. And the courts made Amway Inc. and the upline to pay the plaintiffs what they were suing for. I reconsidered that idea, and felt upset that I didn’t take my upline to court to get reimburse for all the money that I wasted on those books and tapes. I estimate that it was around $900 that I wasted on books and tapes for a period of 2 1/2 years. There are only a few books that anyone might or will need: Magic of thinking big, How to Win friends and influence people, and there’s another one I don’t remember. You don’t need to buy $450 worth of books. Screw that!!! And forget about the tapes, their a waste of time and money. There’s always a married couple going through their challenges, until they finally make it to diamond. (sarcasm) And that’s when they really start making their money, by selling the tape they made talking about their challenges going to diamond.

        If you are going to start an Amway business, really think about it. They get you in with all the Hoo rahs, and then reality settles in with the expense of running an Amway business. Going to functions cost money, especially if you have to go to another state (transportation, lodging, meals, etc.). If they tell you some bull crap that you can take it off your taxes, think again. There are two ways of doing your taxes: standard deductions of $6,000 or itemized. If your itemized expenses do not exceed the standard deductions of $6,000, and always check with an accountant, you may not take some or all of it off. Then you will get a smaller Tax refund or worse, a tax audit. Don’t pay attention to that Anonymous blogger, this is a business not a social circle where people’s lives improve by social interaction. Amway is a business, it is not the Amway Social Club. Everyone in Amway is there to make money, and if friendships develop that’s good also. But always remember that Amway is a business, and be wary of the ATS.

        Good luck to one and all

      • Thanks, Rayrod. Another thing to keep in mind about taxes. You don’t get all the business expenses back, you just don’t have to pay taxes on the expenses, which results in a ~10-25% discount, depending on your tax bracket.

      • interesting experience. I wasn’t in as long as you were; just long enough to go 3 grand in debt before bailing. I remember a foldout book that contained somewhere around 8 to 10 cassette tapes. My upline encouraged me to buy these motivational tapes or else my entire family would have been [almost] murdered (lol…jk). Everyday I was listening to a new tape, felt I was on the road to success. It takes awhile to break this hypnotic effect. When you can only afford the minimum credit card payments and have nothing to show for it, getting out of Amway and let the healing begin was the best move.

      • That was a good move. The best move would be to actively join me in shutting down this scam, and others like it.

      • I think that I might have turned this into the re-telling of a drama / soap opera. Sorry about that. In the post below from ‘Below me’ stated “Don’t you realize how many lives have been ruined financially by joining Amway?” After thinking about my own experience, and what Below Me stated, if the company has already been cited as a Pyramid Scheme back in 1986, why are they still pushing the books and tapes (currently CDs)? a.k.a. Tools. Their lawyers had figured out some sort of loop hole around it. Back in 1988 when I was told by one of the former members of my group who went DD, that he was instructed that his sales goals should be pushing the books and tapes, not the actual products. At first I thought Below Me was being a little over the top. But if the new IBOs are made to believe that buying hundreds or thousand of dollars worth of Books and CDs is an investment into their business? Below Me has a point. That is the bottom line, the sales goals of the up line is to sell the books and CDs (Tools) to their down line, not to help the IBOs build a profitable commercial business. When I decided to stop buying the books and tapes, my Direct Distributor asked my why I stopped ordering the tools? I told him specifically that “I wanted to stream line my expenses, and the books and tapes (tools) were really not helping me to build my business. The couples who made it to Diamond, and going through all their challenges. Same story, different actors.” You wouldn’t believe how much tapes and books I bought every Thursday night at product pickup, over a span of 2 1/2 years. And like I stated above, several months later he told me that I was not considered a friend anymore; I guess he couldn’t make a good profit anymore. Forget him, he was an obnoxious jerk.

        I guess other people followed my lead, (sarcasm) Boo Hoo I broke his little Amway toy. If you want to get into the business that’s on you, just don’t buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of Books and CDs. And if you are being told that is a re-investment into yourself and your business, read the previous paragraph one more time about the Direct Distributors sales goals.

        Good luck to one and all
        “Aint i great !!!”

      • I decided to do a quick search (googled) on ‘Amway Lawsuits’, and several entries came up on the subject. I couldn’t find the one for 1986, but this is a recent one ‘Amway Lawsuit Settles for $150M – Legal Blog Network – FindLaw’ for 2010. And it still has the same complaint from IBOs that my former associate said back in 1988. This one for 2010 should satisfy your arguments, but I still need the weekend to do a proper research.

        Good luck to one and all

      • Google ‘Amway Lawsuits1986′ and also ‘Touchton Law suit’. More links will follow. When you google ‘Touchton Law suit’ hear what Rich De Vos had to say about it. Click on the link about it.

      • You’re allowed to post links on this blog. The Touchton lawsuit was settled out of court, with no admission of guilt from Amway. Same with the $150 million Pokorny lawsuit. Also, the DeVos statements in 1983 are commonly known as the “Directly Speaking” tapes/recordings, which are referenced on this blog, as well the 180 degree change in view in 1995. The ATS is not so much an illegal pyramid as it is RICO fraud, Amway themselves told me they consider the LCKs to be retail sellers and the downline retail buyers of the tools. I can find no flaw in this argument, but that doesn’t change the RICO fraud issue at all.

  36. Amway is not a scam it helps lives .. Amway let’s all people be freely and is giving an oppurtinity to help people who lives are in need..amway has helped many .. But those who work for it get the prize .. Amway is a freely religion place where you could be any religion any at all and we still treat each other the same because we all believe In one God .. Amway isn’t about worshipping them its about uniting with your family and praising God and if you can’t see that im so sorry for you may God bless you and your family

      • I read that article back in 2005 / 2006 nine years ago on an internet news article, I need to dig that up and find out where that news article is. When I started researching Amway again back in march, all the old articles that I read are not available anymore, not unless they were conveniently removed. I need the weekend to do this, when I have a ton of time to research.

        Good luck to one and all

    • Uhm. Hello? Don’t you realize how many lives have been ruined financially by joining Amway? Take off your blinders and read the comments here.

    • Wow, the God and helping others Kool-Aid. Does God tell you to strive for financial gain? Does God ask you to take advantage of others doing so? Does God tell you to use his name to forward that objective? Think again. Or continue NOT to think and continue down the road to a fiery end.

      • Good comment. Actually, the Bible doesn’t have an issue with making money, but definitely NOT by taking advantage of others. In fact, the Bible encourages people to make money and bless others with that money. The fiery end is no doubt where these scammers are heading, except it’s not an end, it’s a fiery ETERNITY.

  37. The majority of Amway training materials are based off of the lecturers need to spout off the same right wing views and voodoo economics, over and over and over. There aren’t any non right wingers in Amway. They whine how unfair it is that rich people are expected to pay taxes, they want to privatize education, they’re against Obamacare, I remember how when I was at a Amway meeting it was when Clinton had just enacted a tax hike on rich people, and oh my god, this is the biggest tax hike in the history of the world. Oh no. It’s communism. Only 1 percent of the training is talking about how the business works. They tell the same story about how they got started in Amway, it’s supposed to be exciting, but it’s a short story, and it isn’t true, about how they wanted money and one day they met an Amway distributor and decided to sign up, and for a while they didn’t make much money but one day all that hard work added up and they had their numbers and the money started coming and then they went on vacations and then came back to work at Amway even though they got money because Amway is exciting. That’s what the lectures are ostensibly about. But, if you listen, you can hear how it’s just a guy who has a need to spout his nonsense about voodoo economics and right wing politics. Really the products are the last thing in Amway.

    • OH – You’re spot on. Did you know they were making most of their money from the tools while you were in, or did you learn this afterwards?

  38. This website was… how do I say it? Relevant!!
    Finally I have found something that helped me. Appreciate it!

  39. LOL Tex…..you could have reached greater heights in life, if you wouldn’t have wasted so much time in giving FREE opinions to people. But anyway, Amway is not for you or I should say you are not deserving enough. Because Amway is for honest, hardworking & smart people. Amway is just rowing & growing in 108 countries since more than 50 years now. Its a fact that it has faced challenges in almost all countries being a new business idea.

    Anyways, I wish you all the best for this blog, though it will not change peoples mind for which you are really working hard I can see :)

    Prayers…

    • I can think of no greater height to reach in life than to help others not be scammed. This is FAR from a waste of time. Amway is for dishonest, scamming, and stupid people. Amway has barely kept up with the inflation rate and is running out of new countries to pilfer. The challenges have only begun for Amway.

      Anyways, I’ll keep doing what I’m doing, as I have received numerous emails thanking me for this blog, and I know I get feedback from only a tiny percentage of the people who are helped. The prayers need to be on the souls of the scammers, they will need it.

    • The following comment is directed towards, and for all readers to consider, just as all comments on this blog are:

      Reshmi,
      your reply here is a total mess. Are you some sort of authority in determining what “wasted so much time” is supposed to include? If so, please present me a list of what you consider wasting time is. I have plenty of hobbies….are they wasting time? Don’t head down the pathway of thinking like a el-douche. Think before you type silly comments like that.
      Honest, hardworking and smart? You’re kidding, right? You must still be on the runaway Amway train headed straight to poverty. Because of you and thousands of others duped into throwing money away on Amways tools, is whats keeping Amway alive! That company is expanding (you make it sound like a good thing) and conning innocent people who’ve never heard of multilevel marketing into tossing their hard earned money into the Amway trash can. Think of it like a plague. You don’t know its hit you till its too late. The “challenges” you refer to are people waking up from their nightmare and realizing what fools they’ve been to give their mind, soul, and paycheck to Amway. Your “deserving enough” comment….lol. Still laughing at that one.

    • You’ll need the prayers when your creator asks you why you knowingly bilked your friends and family out of their hard earned money. “New business idea”, hardly. Merely a recycled scam with political clout.

    • Whoa!!! Leave that propaganda at the door. We are not idealistic 18 year old children, we are full grown adults with our own life experiences, and we have been around the block a few times. Meaning we have seen a lot of crap in our lifetime, and a lot of crappy propaganda that we know better that is not true. I was in the business from late 1982 thru late 1986. And in 1988 I met one of my former associates of my original group, but he was not part of my line of sponsorship. He specifically told me that he left the business when he made it to Direct Distributor, because he was told that his sales goals should be selling the books and tapes, not the actual Amway products like SA-8. He was dis-illusion when he made it to Direct Distributor, because he saw the real deal behind the scenes; and he left. The only thing I am telling you is if you want to be in the Amway business that’s OK, that’s your decision. But Do Not – I repeat Do Not waste your money in the tools (books and tapes). You might need 3 or 4 books at the most, and forget about the tapes. The tapes is a secondary business within the individual’s diamond organization to sell their own crap, and the tapes of other Diamonds. Back in 1986 the company was found in State Court that IT IS a Pyramid Scheme because they forced the Distributors to buy Books and Tapes. I read the article back in 2005, and I haven’t had a chance to research to dig that up again. But I will reply with that link, and proof. I can tell by your own blog you are not a person who thinks along business lines, your thinking is sloppy due to your typos that you did not bother to correct. Plus, how dare you – HOW BLOODY DARE YOU to say that someone is not deserving because they don’t share your delusions. I challenge you on this, start examining Amway as it really is – a business. You are suppose to make profit or break even – not lose money. Research the company, both the pros and the cons. Just don’t take the word of the person who is in front of the audience spouting favorable propaganda. If this is a business, then start examining it as a business.

      • I would be very interested to see that 1986 court decision. I have doubts about it, as the ATS continues to this day. I was told by Amway in the 2006 timeframe that the ATS was legal because there were sellers (the LCKs) and customers (the other IBOs). I tend to agree with this part of the argument, but the ATS is still RICO fraud, as described elsewhere on this blog.

    • You don’t even know the history of the company, it incorporated in 1959, and it has been 55 years not 50.

  40. I am in sydney and I was introduced about Amway yesterday by a family. The guy of family said to me that products also include fast moving ones such as toothpaste etc. daily use things, they are organic thats why they are a bit pricey. He said that bigger thing is that it is providing opportunity to earn by increasing your network.
    So the products are organic and effective thats why they are pricey ?
    There are also other companies such as ACM and Arbonne, working like amway, dont know much about them.

    • I don’t think there are any Amway product labeled as organic. You won’t be able to sell them to others because they are so overpriced, which is why Amway is an illegal pyramid. Throw in the tool scam, and my recommendation is don’t walk away from Amway…RUN! ACM and Arbonne are similar, I recommend staying away from them as well.

    • Ask yourself why their amway water costs 50 USD a case when you can buy it locally for 2.50 USD (assuming Australian prices are similar to U.S. prices). Is it because it’s organic water? Stay away from amway.
      [Edited for Amway agreement compliance]

  41. Multi Level Marketing always has, and always will be a scam, or what i would like to call “a tax on stupidity” much like the lottery. taxes on stupid will always (and should always) be legal, i suggest you quit devoting and wasting even MORE of you time by spamming your pathetic attempt at a wordpress on newspaper websites.

    • You’re entitled to your opinion, but I get a LOT of traffic by notifying and educating others on various websites. Therefore, I believe it is much more about education, and a lot less about “stupidity” or “Darwinism.” LOL

    • Have any hobbies MLM? Unless there is a comet headed for earth this very second ready to kill us all, explain your comment about “wasting time”. Didn’t know we needed to report to you about how we spend it. You’re comment is the greatest dude

  42. Man you must have gotten duped out of a lot of money with Amway. Anyone with half a brain these days that Amway is a scam. I do wish that you would stop comment spamming about this how you were financially raped on websites on articles that obviously has nothing to do with Amway. Personally I am dubious about the reasons behind your cause. Something is very fishy about you. Buy yourself a can red-a$$ salve, lather up, and get over it dude.
    (minor edit to ensure compliance with Amway agreement)

    • I was duped out of a lot of money, and even more valuable, the time that Amway stole. I started in 1993, before the internet was available. You are invited to mind your own business about my comments on other sites, as physical and financial rape are very similar. Personally I don’t care what you think. Something is very stupid about you. Buy yourself a can of soap, lather up your mouth, and butt out…dude. LOL

      • Back in 82′ when I was introduced to my Amway Sponsor, and invited to a showing of the Amway business. I was 18 years old but I was impressed with their line and gimmick. The person speaking said that “this is not a get-rich-quick scheme, and opportunity knocks at the door dressed in work clothes. This will take time and effort, if being financially successful was easy then everyone would be well off.” I signed up, along with a check for $250 made payable to Amway. LOL. Geez, I should have politely said “no”, and kept my $250. I am a little wiser for it, but a little poorer for it also. Oh well. Exam the company as a business, not as the Amway Social Circle. People are there to make money, and make money from your gullible mind and wallet.

      • Rayrod,

        Thanks for your story, it’s interesting to see how little has changed, from the “hard work, not a get rich quick,” to the $250 to Amway, when it should be $50 (probably less in 1982, you obviously were told to buy products when signing up). How long were you in, how much money did you lose? Who was your upline Diamond and tool scam company?

    • People with 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of a brain get duped into scamway all the time dude. Have anything else intelligent to add?

      • I can assure everyone that a lot of people who were duped have full brains. These people are good liars, but it’s harder to lie and get away with it, with the internets and sites like mine around.

    • Although this site is dedicated to Amway, MLM in general is a virus that is growing. Our government has shown little interest in enforcing the laws that regulate these scams. Public information about these scams is necessary to inform people about the reality of Amway and others like it. If your not a Amway clone or investigating the opportunity, why are you here?

      • This site is dedicated mostly to Amway, but you will also find information related to other scams in the news, particularly Herbalife. Check out the news thread, section D. Also, many other MLMs operate very similar to Amway, so if you learn how the Amway scam works, you will learn how most other MLMs work as well. WE have to work together to get the government’s attention, I am constantly on the lookout for them. Just raise your hand and email me: stoptheamwaytoolscam.wordpress.com. This site is open to ANYBODY who wants to learn about Amway and similar MLM scams.

  43. wow! you went downhill fast John W. You’re going to have to go to bed without supper (again). Clean up your language dude.

  44. Heres something to know.
    On our earths economy of the only planet that we know for thousands of light years. But us Astronomers look for a planet much closer than that. On our planet the 85 riches people own 3.5 billion of peoples economy on Earth.
    Those are striking numbers and some people might feel envy . This is our economy, not only United States economy but of our whole Earth. So this is very important to look at.
    Those 3.5 billon people care little about those 85 people richest people. What matters is getting those at the bottom moving UP. The 85 will matter less even they will still continue to grow, when the 3.5 BILLON people owned in economy move UP.
    This is being taking action in the United States now. Moving the bottom up.
    In Amway people being longer in business are obviously higher. The newer I.B.Os are not going tat the bottom, it’s obvious to move up. People being in Amway longer matter little to newer people. What matters is moving UP. This is an economy that exists. The only one we see. If you want to find an other become an astronomer and help us look for an other on a other plant. Meanwhile this is the only one that exists as we know…

  45. Obviously, your “Cosmic Knowledge” does not include proper use of the English language, but I’l ignore the numerous misspellings and grammatical errors and focus on your “ideas,” however flawed they may be.

    I doubt the 85 to 3.5 billion number has changed much over the years, in terms of ratios, for the past few centuries. In other words, when there were hal f the number of people on the planet, the 40 richest had the wealth of the bottom 2 billion. Keep in mind half the earth’s 7 billion people live on $2/day, and half of those on $1/day or less. I doubt a SINGLE one of the 3.5 billion live in the U.S. So, it’s NOT very important to look at this stupid statistic.

    However, one of the surest ways I know to move towards the bottom is to join Amway and get scammed.

  46. I have no idea, I took my best shot at what I read. I think it’s called a stream of consciousness. Hopefully it’s from Colorado or Washington state, the only 2 states where marijuana is legal by state law!

  47. Tex,
    First of all thank you. You’re website is full of accurate detailed research. Not only have I read this blog and it’s menu of pages, but I also checked out your uk page to! I was a former ibo that left to a divorce and was interested in rejoining. I almost joined BWW and was plugged into an Open function with the Gala team!!! No mention of tool income and the money am life styles shown is still presented as all Amway revenue. furthermore the speaker mentioned that we carry products, that amway actually doesn’t carry anymore. After getting into a discussion with the upline platinum and explaining every discrepancy I saw he resorted to the typical objections. I personally work as a restaurant manger and his retort was, well you probably have a lot of people sue you at “company name”. My response was, there is a difference between slipping and busting your head and suing vs Rico fraud suits” to borrow one of your arguments I said it’s the quality of what’s inside the lawsuit not how many. The guy is a platinum and knew nothing of Devos’ direct talks where he mentions 20% income cap on bsm. He didn’t know what the posta memo was either… I said man I’m not even breaking 100pv yet and I know things about your business that you do not. Does this not alarm you that I can out argue a platinum? He just said well this business isn’t for you… I said your right… Then I said you may have shown me amway check for 2000 this month but you’ve also been al over the easy coast too, how much was your net profit after building the business this month? He never responded… So who is the broke loser? The guy in amway or the guy not in amway. He has more money personally, but I don’t operate monthly at a negative profit :) one of us prevails in the end… Guess who?

  48. Thanks for your comment, and you’re welcome. It’s people like you that makes this blog and other efforts to STOP THE AMWAY TOOL SCAM worthwhile. Regarding your divorce, was it BECAUSE of Amway, such as the stress and financial losses it causes? Out of curiosity, which products were mentioned that are no longer available? I’m not at all surprised you can out-argue a Platinum after reading this blog, as they are ignorant or lying. I don’t have to guess who prevails, the answer is obviously YOU! LOL

    Go forth and educate other non-IBOs about this blog, so they don’t waste one second of their lives or one penny from their bank accounts with these scoundrels.

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